558's Future.

[Ducati Boy]

Bubbles not impressed by your tales of woe, been redundant myself 3 times in 14 years, s**t happens. Be British man take life as it comes, take your medicine when you have to and stop whinging for Gods sake. Be advised, I don't owe you my job, I earned the right to do it because I know how to and folk like you simply don't! I work hard for my pay, as does Oberon and all the others at TVOC not just us engineers! Oberon and the rest of us owe you nought.

Knew it would happen and against my better judgement, but I just felt I had to pop back one last time to support Oberon. You have put it all out there for them to read mate and I agree completely. But I guarantee the same morons will be back at you tomorrow. They dont want to hear the truth, no matter what you say it will be twisted by the "twisted". Well done Oberon for having your say.

Unless I am mistaken that makes the complete set of us TVOC engineers well and truly P****d off with the rubbish spouted by some on here. Thanks to the nice folk, you know who you are and I am sad to end such a long period of trying to keep you informed. But the rest of the whingers on here, especially the recently returned serial gripe masters from other forums, have done my head in. No more Vulcan news from me! I am off, if they want information on the Vulcan from now on they can invent their own, they usually do anyway.

[Gaz]

Oberon, I understand that, seemed like a low blow though.

And anyway, don't you lot also work on a grounded aircraft?

[Oberon]

Ah, touché mon brave!

(Again Gaz, apologies, nothing meant personal)

[Bubbles]

I didn't whinge about being out of work, i am not out of work. I also did not start on anyone on a personal level.

[Oberon]

It seems to me that for the past few months it has been ICONICS mainstay to have a pop at the whole of TVOC / VTTST and the Club on a personal level. How can you condone having threads entitled “Engineering Director” and have another thread having a go at the Education Manager? I think you have been sailing pretty close to the wind on these, and some of the statements could be construed as libellous at best.

You seem to hold reasoned debate in high esteem, yet when given some truth from “the dark side” reason, and debate on the core of the topic, seem to be incidental.

I have said my piece. Accept it, ignore it, quote it out of context, do what you will. I have seen enough.

[Bubbles]

Having read that thread i see your point, but i made it clear earlier in this thread that i wasn't calling for people to be sacked nor did i want this to descend into a personal slagging match, i also asked for it to be pulled. at no point have i ever criticized the engineers either in this thread or anywhere else.

[Za150]

Regards of peoples views, I still have faith that we will see a flying Vulcan this year. Looked after by Oberon/DB/Samsam/Smiler Et al. Thank you guys for coming here and posting the facts. You will get nothing but support from me.

[Old Rigger]

I have thought long and hard about wether to post and decided that I will post one more time. I have put riders in some of my posts to try and avoid any possibility of anything being turned into a criticism of the engineers, aircrew and club volunteers, yet I am amazed that it appears to be the engineers themselves who are coming out and claiming we are going on at them 'again', so if 'we' are not listening then how about you cut us some slack when we say constantly:
'we are on hundred percent behind you guys, we would not be here discussing the issues, donating, working on the VV and other events as most do this for you guys, we know the hard work, long hours you put in for all us un-informed people to keep us fed on all things 558. I think most are not actually saying that you owe us your job

Also there are others within the forums/periphery of all things 558 that are fully experienced in the world of aviation engineering who do know about management responsibilities for sorting engineering issues both planning and managing issues within their area and for sub contractors, business acounting, media liason etc.

And if my comments in this or any other of my posts has upset your sensibilities, then sorry but I also uphold the premise some have spelled out that there of two sides to every story, freedom of speech and if people are kept in the dark they will invent conspiracies and before anyone says it I know some stuff has been explained, but a lot has not due to various reasons/excuses of confidentiality etc. Finally there are others besides yourselves that know some off what goes on, but also keep quiet out of respect for the personnel that gave them the information in private, so forgive me if I take exception to some of your comments.

[Mackrick]

Oberon / Biker Boy it was time it was said well done.

[Wedgy]

'we are on hundred percent behind you guys, we would not be here discussing the issues, donating, working on the VV and other events as most do this for you guys, we know the hard work, long hours you put in for all us un-informed people to keep us fed on all things 558. I think most are not actually saying that you owe us your job

Here here!!

It saddens me to see the posts and PMs I am seeing from the engineers recently - but I can see both sides of it.

I used to work for a company (not in the aviation world), that in the eyes of my friends and their families could do no right. They would come out with criticisms (well, that’s too tame, if the devil and my former company were side by side, they would choose to join the devil!), false truths and everything else that goes with it.

I spent a lot of time annoyed with their lack of facts and lack of tact when these stories and false truths were affecting sales, therefore my salary and many a time, threatening my job due to cost cutting (put at risk of redunancy 13 times)!
But I was unable to respond to their stories and lies. The companies policy was for all employees NOT to enter discussions about this matter, for fear of the employee making matters worse while trying to defend the company name.

After many years though, I had an epiphany. This ill feeling towards the company, all the false truths all stemmed from one place, one time….. ONE mistake the company made in the 70s, then compounded by subsequent PR mistakes started it all. No matter how well they did in the following years, they were always still a long way off from repairing the damage done to reputation. I think in later years, the company also came to the same conclusion and instead of seeking quick fixes, set about a long term plan which I believe to this day is slowly bearing fruit 30 years later.

Sound familiar?

I know exactly where anyone feeling hurt/attacked from these discussions is coming from. But at the same time, I also see those on the other side. These feelings HAVE to come from somewhere! I personally have an inbox full of proof pertaining to incompetence and poor management and I am just a nobody who was been part of the club for just over a year. I would hate to think how much material someone who has been involved in the club for so much longer like Bubbles etc would have, but due to a self imposed 'confidentiality clause' while 558 is still airworthy, Im sure others like me are not willing to post such material in the public domain……. But that doesn't stop us venting once in a while by 'moaning' or 'criticising'.

Much like this company, these views HAVE to have come from somewhere. They have to be recognised, not ignored nor criticised. They have to be accepted as an opinion, digested and acted upon in a constructive way by the management. No quick fixes, just long term solutions.

[Jigsaw]

Well put.

[Code monkey]

'we are on hundred percent behind you guys, we would not be here discussing the issues, donating, working on the VV and other events as most do this for you guys, we know the hard work, long hours you put in for all us un-informed people to keep us fed on all things 558. I think most are not actually saying that you owe us your job

Here here!!

It saddens me to see the posts and PMs I am seeing from the engineers recently - but at I can see both sides of it.

Much like this company, these views HAVE to have come from somewhere. They have to be recognised, not ignored nor criticised. They have to be accepted as an opinion, digested and acted upon in a constructive way by the management. No quick fixes, just long term solutions.

You see, I know I'm a bit thick but I'm confused!

On the one hand we have the highly-respected engineering staff telling us in no uncertain terms that they believe the management of this operation (particularly the engineering management) is doing a sterling job and are the only viable option for keeping the aircraft in the air. Also, as of today / last night it seems TVOC have secured funding for another year of flight.

Yet, at the same time we see the recurring funding crisis, the 'shambles' (at least in PR terms - whoever was actually to blame it is TVOC that has had to carry the can) of Waddington, and numerous statements by people who claim 'inside' knowledge (either current or at least recent) of how the company has acted poorly on several matters.

Who to believe? Or, can both be correct and are these 'differences' more about the interpretation of events? As wedgy suggests we should really be looking at improving the communication channels between TVOC and supporters in order to address any misconceptions that may occur.

I sincerly thank Oberon/DB/Smiler for their posts and urge you to continue if you are able, since you guys seem to be the only people from the company prepared to talk directly to the supporters (at least via this media).

Just my 'ill-informed' thoughts - I look forward to becoming less ill-informed in the near future!

Dave

[Wedgy]

Probably, like most companies - differing departments, different opinions and views. E.g. a Customer may love a company, but a vendor has a great dislike for their operation. Marketing may think everything is going well, but Production think it isn't feasible and Sales are worried.

Neither is right, neither is wrong - but there is a 'middle ground' that needs to be travelled.

Just an opinion

[Sooty655]

Oh by the Way Sooty655, it was refreshing to have you and your mates thank TVOC for giving you about a tons worth of Avionic spares to get 655 up to speed.............. oh, damn, I forget, ...... you didn't. But don't let that get in the way of you having yet another slap at us.

Oberon

(Probably ex-Vulcan Engineer)

Sorry you forgot, Oberon, but you've obviously had a lot on your mind recently. May I remind you that I acknowledged the goodies you have provided for ourselves and others in my attempt to defend you against suggestions you had skipped lots of stuff. You then misread that into ME suggesting you had skipped stuff, but I chose not to argue.

Afaik all the removed equipment has been kept for eventual re-installation. The stuff which was sold on ebay (and also given to other Vulcan groups ) was from the tons of spares which were originally supplied with 558.

I then said thanks again in a subsequent post on the same thread (Wot no Vulcans), but you must have forgotten that one as well.

If you need any help with the Avionics, there is the possibility that I may be free as from the end of February.

I hope it doesn't happen, too, but you would be most welcome Oberon. I'm sure Len would enjoy seeing you again! I understand that the van is definitely arranged for next Tuesday, by the way - thanks!

Maybe I have also forgotten, but as far as I can remember, I have never taken a slap at you or any of your troops. You know where I am aiming as well as I do, and if you disagree, that's fine.

My first boss at Ansty used to say "Ineffective action doesn't mitigate failure". Maybe we were all judged by harsher standards in those days - it was a long time ago - but I don't think continuing to apply those standards is necessarily a bad thing. Others will undoubtedly see things differently.

I'll close by saying that I am delighted that the funding crisis has been resolved, and that you and your troops have a job and a wonderful aircraft to keep you out of mischief. If you need any more undercarriage jack brackets, just let us know.

Edited to add our grateful thanks for the tabwashers we needed to reassemble our No 4 engine.

[Hungry Haggis]

Za150 - I believe that the change at the top of the Trustees will have the impact you allude to: a more commercial animal in charge now, as far as I understand.

CG - sorry, but I'm not at liberty to break confidences of committee to discuss what options the Club has been exploring to ensure we are well-placed for whatever the future brings. You of all people should know though that with some of the 'characters' on the committee we're not sitting back idly waiting for something to happen!

HH - I was at an event in Worcestershire last weekend, there are 2 club events in Bournemouth in the near future, a presentation / regional launch will be occurring in Manchester shortly and the most recent Pie Night was Lincolnshire way! The Members' Day is in Leicestershire, but that is where the Club is based. The committee roles that Sarah A and I have are to launch Club Regions literally across the country so events are more local for more members.

Waddington - I know this will frustrate the Lincolnshire contingent, but it's old news that's happened and cannot be changed. From what I know, it was fairly and squarely a third party foul-up and there was nothing VTTS could have done that would have changed the situation. One employs expert subbies, but sometimes they get it wrong - sure CF knows the scenario all too well. The big lesson was in respect of communication, not engineering.

Gully

PS. Thanks for the Moderating, MF!

Thanks for that Gully Again it answers a few things I had wanted to ask about .

[Dan4th]

I'm going to formally request that Oberon,
Ducati Boy and Smiler please take a moment
to reconsider their respective decisions to
leave this forum. Reading this entire thread
from "A" to the "Z we haven't arrived at yet"
would be a good starting point.

People are bound to have their opinions, and
this thread and this forum are FULL of them.
The twists and turns and resolutions and
recapitulations (even the edits) are a wonder!
But the one thing that is a constant and runs
throughout the whole thing is the LOVE OF
THE VULCAN!

You shouldn't be painting the Whole Forum
with One Brush. You know too many of the
forumeers on here to do that. All three of
you are too big a part of Iconic to turn
your collective backs on the only place where
a thread like this one can happen!

Oh, and congratulations on (WOO HOO!)
being allowed to continue doing what you
all three do and love so well.....

(...lucky b*****ds!)

Dan4th

Edited for SadSam. Thought you'd escaped, eh?
No such luck!

D.

[Spitfire]

Dan4th

Well said - the engineers do ALL the work and have no control over what goes on above them in the food chain

However they are doing a grand job in keeping XH in the air and fully serviceable - now get those legs back on and get her off the jacks

[Checkflaps]

From what I know, it was fairly and squarely a third party foul-up and there was nothing VTTS could have done that would have changed the situation. One employs expert subbies, but sometimes they get it wrong - sure CF knows the scenario all too well. The big lesson was in respect of communication, not engineering.

Gully

Indeed. We have been lucky on this site to have a very good groundwork subbie. However, if there had been any serious issues. Rest assured the Project Manager would have had a 'pleasant conversation' with the subbie, me and the site manager - mainly 1 way. It would appear, as you said, communication was the crux of problem surrounding the Permit renewal (as it so often is with many issues, not just 'job' related ones at that) and I think it fair to say that lessons HAD to have been learnt from it. I'm pretty confident that the situation at Waddo will not be repeated simply because having been burnt by it once, it would be foolish in the extreme to let things get to the point where it happens again.

Anyway, roll on the 2010 display season. Hopefully Marshalls have been paid enough to have all the prep work for the Mod done or at least well underway. The leg can now be done and refitted as well.

Not aimed at Gully specifically (as why would he know more than others here on this specific subject), the Mod to be done, does it have to be done absolutely immediately? Hear me out on this one.......... If the leg came back in say 2 weeks and was ready to fit, is there anything, other than simply burning up cash, to stop XH558 having a little shakedown flight prior to the Mod being done? Keeps the crews current (how long can they stay away without a large amount of 'retraining'?) And yes, I know they also need to get the permit in place as well. Is that dependant on the Mod?

Finally. Hopefully, everyone has had their copy of the club mag (not too many typos so far , Vulcan with F15 was my fave so far ) I read with interest, in Kev Rumens article, about the fact that this season they are hopefully going to get an IFR capability which should help to reduce engine wear, fatigue, and save fuel (or money). As these articles seem to have been written at the end of 2009, is this any further forward yet? Just asking - please don't shoot me.

G

[P.eames]

This is a interesting if somewhat controversial thread isn't it!

if i may draw on my 40 odd years in the defence industry (30 of those in managment) by pointing out that when it comes to responsibility then i'm afraid that in the case of the permit issue the buck lies firmly with the director and the company, whether it his fault or not is largely irrelevent, it is his responsibility to ensure that the engineering aspects are coverd, fair or not thats the way it is and if the current director does not like this then as one of the engineers puts it, tough sh*t. i don't think that the director should be sacked but i do belive he and the company should have stood up and accepted responsibility , to sit saying it was'nt our fault it was a third party that cannot be named incase it damages goodwill is surely damaging to goodwill in itself?

I have followed the restoration of 558 for the last ten years, ever since a certain "wannabe" pesterd me to see if my firm would be interested in supporting the project, i have no connection to any employees nor do belong to the club, donated, pledged any funds so i think i can be classed as neutral. I notice that there has been no nastiness or unpleasentness up untill the two engineers joind the thread and decided to have ago at the original poster.

The bit that irritates me the most is the attitude shown by them, at no point were they attacked or criticised, yet they feel that it is ok to have a personal dig? Mr ducatiboy says that he has the right to his job and he owes bubbles nothing, that may be the case but consider this. You are privilged to be able to work on an aircraft such as 558, that privilige is maintaind by many, many people, going back to the Waltons who bought the aircraft ,the volunteers who looked after while she was at Bruntingthorpe (including a certain wannabe) the chaps who carried the soft start, the many thousends of people from children giving their pocket money to pensioners giving their pensions. then there is the club members (again includes the wannabe) the volunteers who give their time freely and for some at great cost. To those people you and everyone of the employees within the trust owe a great debt of gratitude. if it was'nt for those people you would not have the good news that you had today. when you start back at work next week i hope you stop and think just how lucky you are to have an army of supporters behind you, i notice that today in Leicestershire the county T.V.O.C is based 900 council workers will lose their jobs, they unlike you have nobody to rescue their jobs. it was not bubbles who mentiond losing jobs, it was Oberon, nor did Bubbles make any mention of his woes as Ducatiboy puts it, so how he feels able to comment is beyond me.

I do hope that some of the words posted here by the engineers do not leak to other places as i think they would be seen in a bad light by a great number of people, i know they have changed my views on contributing to appeal as at this moment in time there sits before me a bankers draft for a great deal of money that will not be sent. I do hope the attitude shown here is not the general attiude among employees within the trust. No doubt i will recieve a stream of flack and probably more private messeges barracking me but to those that do i suggest going back and reading this thread again.

[Sooty655]

....... If the leg came back in say 2 weeks and was ready to fit, is there anything, other than simply burning up cash, to stop XH558 having a little shakedown flight prior to the Mod being done? Keeps the crews current (how long can they stay away without a large amount of 'retraining'?)

We realise that it is only part of the crew "retraining" requirement, but we make 655 available whenever we can to allow the aircrew to maintain familiarity whilst 558 is being worked on by the engineers. Timing is a bit tighter this year with our engine work, but we still expect to be able to provide a familiarisation weekend before 558 is ready to go.

[Hungry Haggis]

Can I just stick my neck in the noose and say only one thing here .then I will refrain .Please let there be no attacks personally or otherwise on the engineers as a whole. They take some stick but also do their jobs under what I think recently has been a tough situation .Yes I know we ALL Get a bit heated now and then but our support I think I am safe in saying has and always will be for the guys on the shop floor .

[P.eames]

There wasn't an attack on the engineers, it only got personal when the engineers started.

[Xplumberlives]

There wasn't an attack on the engineers, it only got personal when the engineers started.

Indeed, most people posting went out of their way to stress that they had the utmost respect for the Engineers!

[Za150]

Sorry Mr P.Eames but i believe the engineers said what was needed to be said. I have read and re-read this thred and i think the enginners were justified in saying what they did.

Thay have not only laid out the facts they have also said what they personally believe. On one should have a go at some for stating there opinion.

Not everyone is going to like what they say and thats fair enough. But they also never said people should believe what they said.

[P.eames]

Oh dear.

Look il explain this as simply as possible shall i? Responsibility is different to fault.

If company X is tasked by TVOC to carry out whatever work was needed to sort the issue then it is the engineering director's responsibility to ensure that work is carried out, if company x fails to carry out that work then it is company X's fault. However As the engineering director is responsible for all things engineering (including the permit) then he is responsible.

maintaining goodwill to third parties was mentioned, well sorry but saying it wasn't our fault and pointing the finger at third parties will not go far in maintaining that goodwill, lets be honest here there isn't that hard to narrow down the guilty party is it? Top two choices are Marshalls or British Aerospace. Bet they are chuffed to bits.

You are quite correct in saying that the engineers (no matter who they are) have a right to reply. However the personal abuse that was spouted was out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm sure that personal attacks are not allowed here and if you're trying to say they were on the end of some then you have clearly reading the wrong thread, the personal stuff started with the engineers, and the attitude showed was at best very poor, despite what you may think the staff at TVOC owe a great deal to those that have given so much over the years.

You may or may not agree with me and thats fine by me, but after 3 decades of running programs etc i feel fairly confident i know what I'm talking about.

Now if you will excuse me I'm off to sunnier places.