TSR2. Would it actually have worked?

[Checkflaps]

Morning all.

This has been bouncing around in my head for a while now.

Having seen almost all of the available film footage and most of the discussions over the years on various fora about TSR2 - which always seem to descend to saying 'It was amazing and the US killed it off because it was a threat to their world domination of miltary aircraft sales '( I don't quite buy that theory), I am still wondering if it would have been a success as an capable strike aeroplane?

Yes, we have all seen it was massive (almost as long as a Vulcan), but the wings were about as wide as Spitfire. It had great acceleration, as the chase Lightning will testify en route to Warton. But would it have been a good 'bomb truck' ? Unfortunately, it was all canceled before they could get anywhere near the trials that would have given any indication of its true potential.

With all the power of computing these days, how difficult would it actually be to make a computer model and put it to the test - particularly up against its nemesis, the F1-11 - or even better, the current mud mover, Tornado?

I'm not aware of any genuine current scientific research that has been done on the aircraft design - beyond the realms of the flight sim world - so does anyone know any different?

For what its worth, I think it was a great looking aircraft with a lot of potential, masses of power (which could have been uprated during later engine mods like every other jet seems to be). Slightly suspect landing gear, but when she 'cleaned up' it had such elegant lines. There was talk about it having payload issues - maybe having to trade off bombs for fuel or vice versa, but it was only a prototype airframe and perhaps weight saving measures could have been implemented on later airframes. Also, returning to the wings - I know in the UK, we have wizards who perform special magic to create wings that work really well, but they never really looked big enough to be effective. I wonder what the ceiling of TSR2 would have been (for transits - as I know it was designed as a treetop flying strike aircraft).

Anyway, over to you lot.



G

[Saracenman]

Bee Beaumont was utterly convinced, despite his initial reservations regarding fitting a new airframe with new engines.

i think it would still be around today, in one form or another - heavily modified and updated no doubt

the burning question in MY mind, however, is: had TSR2 not been cancelled, and ultimately replaced the Vulcan fleet, would it have got to Port Stanley?

sm

[Mackrick]

TSR2 was years ahead of its time. When you look at the hardware that ended up in Jaguar and Tornado because of it.
It was that good that there was a serious study to reverse engineer it in 1979 years after it had been cancelled. Modifications to bring it up to date included intakes with variable ramps like Concorde, modern avionics, Olympus 593 engines as per Concorde.

[Sooty655]

the burning question in MY mind, however, is: had TSR2 not been cancelled, and ultimately replaced the Vulcan fleet, would it have got to Port Stanley?

My guess is Yes, but the Victor (or maybe Vulcan) tankers would have had to take off a lot earlier.

[Code monkey]

Damn fine question CF! I'd love to see a computer sim of TSR vs F111 ;-)

[Saracenman]

TSR2 was years ahead of its time. When you look at the hardware that ended up in Jaguar and Tornado because of it.
It was that good that there was a serious study to reverse engineer it in 1979 years after it had been cancelled. Modifications to bring it up to date included intakes with variable ramps like Concorde, modern avionics, Olympus 593 engines as per Concorde.

i have no doubt that much of it would have a current place in today's RAF inventory. there is little or nothing today which can exceed it's performance

sm

[Xplumberlives]

and we would have had 12 in service!

[Mags]

TSR2 was years ahead of its time. When you look at the hardware that ended up in Jaguar and Tornado because of it.
It was that good that there was a serious study to reverse engineer it in 1979 years after it had been cancelled. Modifications to bring it up to date included intakes with variable ramps like Concorde, modern avionics, Olympus 593 engines as per Concorde.

Mackrick - what was the outcome of the study?

[Mackrick]

They decided against it. They proposed using XR220 and XR222 as prototypes.
As the Tornado prototype was already flying 4 Aug 1974 the idea appears to have been dropped.

[Nickolas]

They decided against it. They proposed using XR220 and XR222 as prototypes.
As the Tornado prototype was already flying 4 Aug 1974 the idea appears to have been dropped.

I'd give anything to see one fly..............

Clean it's so sweet, the maingear ..............yikes it looks soo fragile. Not too keen on the leading wheel set up.
Tail wagging dog springs to mind..........

[Mackrick]

After it was cancelled they continued to fly one on for a year or so on development work. Some flying was for the aerodynamics and other flights were for the avionics.

[Mags]

Is that common knowledge then? Had no idea they did continue to fly one after the cancellation.

What was TRS2's maximum speed?

[Checkflaps]

Just to add a bit more to this TSR2 thread, heres a nice vid along with ironic music. I see also from YouTube that some bloke called Saracenman has uploaded the entire TSR2 story video. Good man - whoever he is



Its funny Mackrick, you mentioned about the possibility of restarting the programme and effectively reverse engineer the 2 survivors, having gotten them flying again. It was written up in 'Air Pictorial' back in September 1981. I do have scanned images of the article (not mine) but will post them up if allowed to by the mods. The article is somewhat stretching the case for restarting it, along with the ease it would be to get them flying and then build new ones. But it is a nice read - and does make you say 'If only'.

Now then, I wonder how that blokes very large scale model TSR2 is getting on. Last pics I saw, it flippin huge.

G

[RLN]

Nice video, CF. Wasn't she beautiful?

[Mackrick]

I know a few engineers who worked on the project and they believe it did what it said on the tin and more. I know that Jimmy Dell when in a chase lightning at low level 250ft with the TSR2 had to pull up to as the turbulence was too much but RPB was happy and said was a smooth .....

[Ramshornvortex]

What was TRS2's maximum speed?

M2.15

[Checkflaps]

Well, with Oly 593's, I reckon she would have been a real supercruise aircraft, well before that term even became fashionable.

TDC - the best for flight you can hope for is either FSX or this bloke with plenty of time on his hands............

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6599738/anchors_8177409/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#8177409

There is a bigger model - stand by for photos, when I uplaod them.

G

[Sooty655]

Well, with Oly 593's, I reckon she would have been a real supercruise aircraft, well before that term even became fashionable.

I posted the same thing, then deleted it after I found that Wiki claims the 593 was no more powerful than the Oly380 which was developed for production TSR2s.

I'm somewhat sceptical of that, but the books I need to check it out are somewhere under builder's dust sheets at the moment.

[Checkflaps]

There is a book out there called 'The Murder of TSR2' and I do beleive that Mrs Thomas might have viewed it from the library as it is mocho dinari to purchase - well, that is if she could prise it away from Mr T.

Yet to read but I shall add it to my wishlist. I also think that 'Tim McLelland' aka Chox on 'another' forum is currently looking into the TSR2 story for research into a new book to try and debunk some of the conspiracy theories and basically sum up that it was too expensive and GB plc was bankrupt.

As for 'supercruise', I suppose they never really had a chance to test it to its full potential anyway to see if it could or not. It did apparently manage Mach 1+ on one occasion on the transit to Warton - on one reheat only. And according to 'Bea' it left the Lightning chase behind.

G

BTW, as no one seems to have objected, here is the 'Air Pictorial' editorial - its not mine so apologies to whoever scanned it (and well done for keeping it all these years).






If this breaches any of the forum rules, I will remove the article. Happy reading though.

Whislt I am at it........................... more copyright breaches.......









And finally, for Tom.Com, I did find the 'big' model TSR2.
http://www.largemodelassociation.com/keith_mitchell_TSR2.htm

Bedtime for me.
Nite

G

[Xplumberlives]

Thanks C.F.

[Jigsaw]

Great stuff

[Xplumberlives]

Anybody know what stage the RC TSR2 is at, the page hasn't been updated since Feb 2009!

[Mayfly]

Yup your right CF I ordered [it had been archived] it booked it out the library & DT bloody nicked it - gave it back to me 3 days before I needed to extend the loan only to find it had been ordered elsewhere & I had to had it back


So I only got a quick look & never got round to reordering it. Looked on Amazon & they were fetching over £200

[Mackrick]

I have a copy here MF
More TSR2 Books if anyone is interested
Testing Years - Roland Beamont - Ian Allen - 1980 - ISBN 0-7110-1072-2
British Aircraft Corporation TSR2: An Aeroguide Special ISBN-10: 0946958475 ISBN-13: 978-0946958474
TSR2: Navigation and Weapon Delivery ISBN-10: 0752439197 ISBN-13: 978-0752439198

[Delhud]

There have been many theories about TSR2 possibilities

As for the destruction of all the tooling and the pollies strong denials---I leave it to you

I have always held the view it would have been a success and probably still in service
albeit not in quite the format we are used to seeing but then Im only an old has been
with no desire for politics

Delhud