558 Funding Update

[Yorkie]

None of the above matters, because 558
cannot be "Owned" and therefore, in all
likelihood, not "Sold". I doubt very much
if any profit-making entity would be
allowed to be the caretaker/operator of
this aircraft.

Aircraft, Spares, Records, Debts, All
Certifications and Other Maintenance
Agreements PLUS the Rest of the
Organization from Taff On Down needs
to go to a new Caretaker with the
Correct People in charge.

D.

No but, if someone took over as "caretaker" and kicked the people that need kicking into touch, then support 558 financially. that has to be better than we have? we were always talking about a sponsor so why not have someone like DW as sponsor/caretaker.

and 558 SHOULD make money, not loose it. does Sally B loose money on every airshow she attends? I know she can land at every show so transit costs are lower but still to loose money at every show is poor if not suicidal.

So whats the alternative? Airshows can't afford to pay her total running costs & if she didn't appear at them she wouldn't even be flying as theres no other market for her at this time!

It was an innocent question about the running costs, if airshows don't cover the cost of running her. we have to find another way for funding her. eg. education programmes (from engineering colleges and universities as well as schools), museum/visits (assuming she can have public access). it is easy to blame people but this should have been in place BEFORE she flew, now it is certainly needed and quickly (once the money to run her is found)

[Sooty655]

How many times do I have to say that
from a legal standpoint no one would
be allowed to "Own" 558?

She cannot be held by a profit-making
organization of any kind. She can't be
owned or operated by any kind of sponsor.

Trusteeship desperately needs to go to
Respected, Well-Known individuals who
have demonstrated skills and experience
in historic aircraft operation and the rest
of the organization from Taff on down
needs to be kept intact.

Dan4th

I believe the new Chair to be a dymanic fellow & I have known his new second in command for a number of years personally - As far as the Trustees go I think 558 is in as good hands as she ever has been.

Agree with Dan4th, but not Mayfly. It is clear that HLF aren't going to intervene unless and until the existing Trustee Board throws in the towel. Yet all the while, the hole is getting deeper and any possible airshow revenue and public 558 visibility gets further away, and NOTHING viable is being done about it.

[Xplumberlives]

How many times do I have to say that
from a legal standpoint no one would
be allowed to "Own" 558?

She cannot be held by a profit-making
organization of any kind. She can't be
owned or operated by any kind of sponsor.

Trusteeship desperately needs to go to
Respected, Well-Known individuals who
have demonstrated skills and experience
in historic aircraft operation and the rest
of the organization from Taff on down
needs to be kept intact.

Dan4th

I believe the new Chair to be a dymanic fellow & I have known his new second in command for a number of years personally - As far as the Trustees go I think 558 is in as good hands as she ever has been.

Very interesting!

[Yorkie]

both Dan4th and Mayfly have valid points, but if HLF don't get involved and the worst happens the administrators WILL sell 558 and the HLF will have no say over it, their aiom will be to get the creditors money and the only way to do it is sell. so someone needs to get their head out of their ar*e and sort something out before it get that far.

And like i said in my previous reply to Mayfly, if the airshows don't bring in enough revenue then other sources need to be found, and having 558 tucked away in a RAF base isn't the answer, perhaps not upsetting DW in the first place may have been as she would be at Brunty in full public view.

the difference this year is we have no aircraft to easily show off to the press and potential sponsors. we have to go through RAF clearence.

[gets down off soapbox now]

[Xplumberlives]

All valid points!

[Mayfly]

Agree with Dan4th, but not Mayfly. It is clear that HLF aren't going to intervene unless and until the existing Trustee Board throws in the towel. Yet all the while, the hole is getting deeper and any possible airshow revenue and public 558 visibility gets further away, and NOTHING viable is being done about it.


Sooty my point is the Chair person is new in that postion & his Vice is new to the board - IF ever the trust are to get to grips with the situation now is the time it will happen IMO

[Xplumberlives]

About time they started then, the FAT LADY is warming up in the wings!

[Sooty655]

Agree with Dan4th, but not Mayfly. It is clear that HLF aren't going to intervene unless and until the existing Trustee Board throws in the towel. Yet all the while, the hole is getting deeper and any possible airshow revenue and public 558 visibility gets further away, and NOTHING viable is being done about it.


Sooty my point is the Chair person is new in that postion & his Vice is new to the board - IF ever the trust are to get to grips with the situation now is the time it will happen IMO

Given the obvious severity of the funding crisis, they have already demonstrated they can't do the job. It needed doing as soon as they were appointed. Time to think is time they haven't got.

[Dan4th]

The fact remains that 558 cannot
be "Sold", at least not in the
conventional sense.

I defer to Mayfly's knowledge
regarding the current Trustee
Crop, but When, Oh, When will
we see something done?

I am perfectly happy to see
the present arrangement
continue, but only FIXED so
it works as it should. When
is this going to happen? Why
hasn't it happened already?

Dan4th

[Yorkie]

The fact remains that 558 cannot
be "Sold", at least not in the
conventional sense.


Dan4th

but if a potential major sponsor "caretaker" were found, they could get a poistion of authority on the trust, and i presume if they were ploughing £££'s into the project they would get a big say in the running?

[Dan4th]

No one can be both Caretaker AND
Sponsor. Plus, Eddie Forester hasn't
been able to have any impact despite
all the financial support he's so
generously and caringly provided....

Danf.

[Yorkie]

No one can be both Caretaker AND
Sponsor. Plus, Eddie Forester hasn't
been able to have any impact despite
all the financial support he's so
generously and caringly provided....

Danf.

none of us will ever forget what Eddie F has done financially for 558

surely it must be time for people to stand up and be counted (no I don't mean a coup) but the trust are responsible for a one off, she's not replacable and thats rare these days.

Someone needs the balls to stand up and say "ok now we need help, who has some ideas?) but it needs to come from the top and they need to accept the offers.

Realisticly how long before work HAS to be done to 558? last i heard the leg was paid for but nothing happening, then surely winter servicing and antidets (bring the engines out of hibernation)

[Sooty655]

Realisticly how long before work HAS to be done to 558? last i heard the leg was paid for but nothing happening, then surely winter servicing and antidets (bring the engines out of hibernation)

That will only get you ten hours flying. By the time the necessary test flights and crew re-familiarisation is done, there will be NO display flying left in the airframe.

Only solutions are to either design and install the strengthening mods or persuade design authority/CAA that the fatigue life limit can be extended. As 558 is now the lead hours airframe, an extension isn't a realistic possibility, so the funds HAVE to be found to do the work.

A "cheap" routine service and carry on for a bit just isn't an option.

[Yorkie]

Realisticly how long before work HAS to be done to 558? last i heard the leg was paid for but nothing happening, then surely winter servicing and antidets (bring the engines out of hibernation)

That will only get you ten hours flying. By the time the necessary test flights and crew re-familiarisation is done, there will be NO display flying left in the airframe.

Only solutions are to either design and install the strengthening mods or persuade design authority/CAA that the fatigue life limit can be extended. As 558 is now the lead hours airframe, an extension isn't a realistic possibility, so the funds HAVE to be found to do the work.

A "cheap" routine service and carry on for a bit just isn't an option.

Sorry I think you misunderstood what i was asking

I know that the Mods have to happen to get the PTF, I was asking what needed doing to ensure that when the mods are done we have a servicable aircraft. how long can the engines stay in hibernation?

[Sooty655]

Realisticly how long before work HAS to be done to 558? last i heard the leg was paid for but nothing happening, then surely winter servicing and antidets (bring the engines out of hibernation)

That will only get you ten hours flying. By the time the necessary test flights and crew re-familiarisation is done, there will be NO display flying left in the airframe.

Only solutions are to either design and install the strengthening mods or persuade design authority/CAA that the fatigue life limit can be extended. As 558 is now the lead hours airframe, an extension isn't a realistic possibility, so the funds HAVE to be found to do the work.

A "cheap" routine service and carry on for a bit just isn't an option.

Sorry I think you misunderstood what i was asking

I know that the Mods have to happen to get the PTF, I was asking what needed doing to ensure that when the mods are done we have a servicable aircraft. how long can the engines stay in hibernation?

Sorry, Yorkie, I mis-read your post.

I assume RR have already agreed the engines could stay in hibernation whilst the leg work was carried out. How long is up to them, but I wouldn't think 3~4 months would be a problem.

The alternative would be to put on a "scrap" leg so she could be rolled out for anti-dets. I guess if the leg were to be delayed significantly, that would have to happen.

We have to hope that all these problems have been forseen and planned for by TVOC management, despite the evidence of the past. If they haven't then the hole just gets deeper and deeper.

[Yorkie]

How long does the MOD work take? have any plans been approved by the CAA/OEM?

[Sooty655]

How long does the MOD work take? have any plans been approved by the CAA/OEM?

If that question was aimed at me, I'm afraid I don't know. Last published info from Dr P was that they were going to go ahead with the design contracts, but I don't recall any timescales being made known.

[P.eames]

How long does the MOD work take? have any plans been approved by the CAA/OEM?

From my somewhat limited engineering background (many, many moons ago) i would reckon on 6 months for the spar modification, that is assuming the plans etc are still to be drawn up, if thats all taken care of then obviously less, but given the way the shower is run i doubt that very much.

From a conversation i had with Mr Walton a while back i do know that 558 is welcome at Bruntingthorpe, though in what capacity i couldn't say, he certainly is still a fan of the aircraft and is i believe the president of the club.

[Yorkie]

Cheers. that question was just thrown onto the table, I knew someone would be able to answer.

So there is no point in sorting the leg and doing antidets to bring 558 back to life, to do 2 or 3 airshows then the spar work?

six months from now is june.. thats pushing it a bit!

will have to wait and see, you never know the trust may have found the spare cash from somewhere

[P.eames]

Without the Mod 558 has around 19 hours of flight remaining, you would use a few of those in airtests etc so very little point in doing the service and leg only. Not only that but i believe that the funds sourced for next season depend on the trust having a servicable aeroplane, so if you ground her to do the mod or she runs out of hours you're pretty much buggard on that front as well.

[Yorkie]

Thats what I thought.....

[Xplumberlives]

So whatever happens with the funding debacle, ultimately we have an asset which can't fly much in 2010 let alone attend many airshows!

I so hope I am drawing the wrong conclusion!

[Air]

I've chucked a few more quid into the pot, not that it'll significantly boost the fund but still.

It's all looking a bit bleak right now. We just need a nice £500,000 donation from a philanthropist.....again.

[Gaz]

In the words of the great thinker, Bartholemew J. Simpson:

"Well, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't!"

[P.eames]

So whatever happens with the funding debacle, ultimately we have an asset which can't fly much in 2010 let alone attend many airshows!

I so hope I am drawing the wrong conclusion!

If the appeal target is met then the work can start in earnest, that includes the Mod spar which will sort the fatigue problem out, and which in turn will release the sourced funds from where ever they have found them. But it all depends on meeting the targets they have set.

Gaz, i think a better way to put is thus....Either way they're royally f****d.