558 Funding Update

[Stigish]

I'd still rather someone formed a consortium to attempt a take over, instead of something like the latter
Fans of Liverpool Football club have/are attempting something like that which was very popular. Alot of people were prepared to part with sums in excess of £5000 each for a stake, although they were trying to raise in excess of £400million. Obviously no-one would need to part with any where near that much cash.

Out of interest, any idea's how much would 558 be worth if put up for sale?

[Nickolas]

Ring up NASA and ask what they'd pay. I recall that they were interested back in 1992/3.

Current market value????????????? I'd hate to put a figure to it.

[Xplumberlives]

Ring up NASA and ask what they'd pay. I recall that they were interested back in 1992/3.

Current market value????????????? I'd hate to put a figure to it.

That was rumoured to be a research project, I should think it's been done or killed off by now!

[Dan4th]

May I put one thing to rest?

Please?

In the darkest hours, it has been the habit
of The Trust to raise the Unthinkable
Prospect of 558 being Sold to the (GASP!)
Slimey Murkins. Whenever this is mentioned,
I just cringe with Horror and Disbelief.

Here in the Good Old USA, there is very little
knowledge of the Vulcan. Leonard Nimoy is
who comes to mind for 99.9% of Murkins when
the word Vulcan is mentioned, not a large,
noisey British aircraft.

The very idea that 558 would be snatched away
to the Western Hemisphere, never to return
to her Rightful Home, is utterly and totally
ABSURD.

One would think to listen to these people that
there is a queue outside the hangar door at Lynham
of people pushing wheelbarrows of currency just
itching to carry her off to a life as a theme park
attraction!

I am mad that this sort of thing is used to wind
people up and manipulate them rather than just
simple, honest, straightforward portrayal of the
True Situation and what needs to be done to
keep her flying.

It is also reflective of the opinion these people
hold of the level of intelligence of the average
Vulcan supporter.

Dan4th

[Xplumberlives]

Let us call it a PLEMINGISM!

[Air]

It's been said before, but WTF, I'll say it again:

The trust going tits up will not kill 558. If anything, it's the best thing that could happen for the aircraft.

Care to elaborate please? As far as I can see, if it all goes tits up then it'll probably never fly again.
Unless you know different.

You never know, we might actually get someone who knows what they're doing to buy the business!!

Or we might not. You might get squashed by a big guppy tomorrow, then again you might not.

So what if it all goes Tits up, didnt i read somewhere that they would sell 558 and possilbly to America!!?

Highest bidder I suppose. If that means the Vulcan will still be flying, good! A flying Vulcan SOMEWHERE in the world is better than ANOTHER one in a museum

I don't care if the best business brains in the world are running it; if it's not flying in the UK then it might as well be in a museum as far as I'm concerned.
Selfish? Yes. But it has to stay here where it belongs.
I'd be equally gutted if it just ends up taxiing at some remote airfield I'm never likely to visit too.

[Gaz]

As I said in another post that you either missed or ignored:

Lets just say, the trust has had a go, had some success and ballsed up quite a bit. Time for someone else to have a go!

Long and short of it! It IS time for another organisation to have a go! NOBODY could do any worse, I'm sure of it.

Just my view of it, but, feel free to disagree, I enjoy the banter!

[Xplumberlives]

It's been said before, but WTF, I'll say it again:

The trust going tits up will not kill 558. If anything, it's the best thing that could happen for the aircraft.

Care to elaborate please? As far as I can see, if it all goes tits up then it'll probably never fly again.
Unless you know different.

You never know, we might actually get someone who knows what they're doing to buy the business!!

Or we might not. You might get squashed by a big guppy tomorrow, then again you might not.

So what if it all goes Tits up, didnt i read somewhere that they would sell 558 and possilbly to America!!?

Highest bidder I suppose. If that means the Vulcan will still be flying, good! A flying Vulcan SOMEWHERE in the world is better than ANOTHER one in a museum

I don't care if the best business brains in the world are running it; if it's not flying in the UK then it might as well be in a museum as far as I'm concerned.
Selfish? Yes. But it has to stay here where it belongs.
I'd be equally gutted if it just ends up taxiing at some remote airfield I'm never likely to visit too.

That may well be closer to the outcome than any of us care to contemplate! Stuck at RAF Lyneham awaiting whatever!

[Air]

Lets just say, the trust has had a go, had some success and ballsed up quite a bit. Time for someone else to have a go!

Long and short of it! It IS time for another organisation to have a go! NOBODY could do any worse, I'm sure of it.

Just my view of it, but, feel free to disagree,

I don't disagree, but while it may be time for someone else to have a go, IS there anyone to take over?

If not, then I'd rather the current lot carry on as it's better than nothing.

[Gaz]

Lets just say, the trust has had a go, had some success and ballsed up quite a bit. Time for someone else to have a go!

Long and short of it! It IS time for another organisation to have a go! NOBODY could do any worse, I'm sure of it.

Just my view of it, but, feel free to disagree,

I don't disagree, but while it may be time for someone else to have a go, IS there anyone to take over?

If not, then I'd rather the current lot carry on as it's better than nothing.

I guess in a few days time, we'll find out

But yes, the current folk would be better than nobody, I suppose

[Xplumberlives]

But ONLY just!

[Dee]

Getting just a tad depressing over here now!

[Gaz]

Getting just a tad depressing over here now!

Yeah, it is depressing, but, unfortunately, it IS the way it is.

[Panel 10]

Please read again

Why you should act now, a personal appraisal.

If the trustees are not confident that the VTST can continue to operate on a financially viable basis then they have a legal duty to wind the Trust up. The Trust is the only organisation certified (by CAA, Marshalls etc) to maintain and operate 558. If the Trust had to be wound up there isn't the possibility of 'mothballing' 558 as there would be no certified organisation to carry out anti dets etc.

A new organisation might theoretically be set up, but there'd be an awful lot of obstacles in their way, from getting CAA authority through to the question of 558's ownership. Without routine maintenance airworthiness approvals would quickly lapse. I strongly suspect that if engine maintenance were to lapse then neither Rolls or CAA would allow 558 to fly again on 'used' engines, and as she now only has 3 unused, future restoration to flight would be effectively impossible.

So there is no time for arguments, no time for buy-outs, no time for management take-overs and no time to waste. Pledging/donating now is the only choice if you want to see a flying Vulcan ever again.

She will be scrapped where she stands and quote 'carted away in skips'

[Air]

If the trustees are not confident that the VTST can continue to operate on a financially viable basis then they have a legal duty to wind the Trust up. The Trust is the only organisation certified (by CAA, Marshalls etc) to maintain and operate 558. If the Trust had to be wound up there isn't the possibility of 'mothballing' 558 as there would be no certified organisation to carry out anti dets etc.

A new organisation might theoretically be set up, but there'd be an awful lot of obstacles in their way, from getting CAA authority through to the question of 558's ownership. Without routine maintenance airworthiness approvals would quickly lapse. I strongly suspect that if engine maintenance were to lapse then neither Rolls or CAA would allow 558 to fly again on 'used' engines, and as she now only has 3 unused, future restoration to flight would be effectively impossible.

Yes, that's how I see it. Any group stepping in would have to do so very quickly else OEM support might be pulled.
I'm sure Marshalls would want some guarantee of payment from a new organisation before they started any work, which goes back to my post way back in the thread when I said a new group would need to come in with cash at the ready to save the Vulcan.

[P.eames]

The end of the trust would not mean the end of the aircraft. Marshall's are the engineering honchos and it is they who hold the authorities to carry out maintenance ? Assuming they are then surely it is possible for the club to pay Marshalls to carry out anti det runs/ servicing etc until a new trust or whatever is formed. Chin up boys and girls! The end of XH558 is not nigh.

[Xplumberlives]

The end of the trust would not mean the end of the aircraft. Marshall's are the engineering honchos and it is they who hold the authorities to carry out maintenance ? Assuming they are then surely it is possible for the club to pay Marshalls to carry out anti det runs/ servicing etc until a new trust or whatever is formed. Chin up boys and girls! The end of XH558 is not nigh.

A REALIST has posted!

[Mackrick]

Would anyone object to 558 having a scantily clad woman holdong a union jack on the nose & a red painted tail fin?

Nice idea but this would cost even more money than the cost of painting said lady. You would be modifying the aircraft from its original colour scheme. This would mean paying to have the modification approved.

[Air]

The end of the trust would not mean the end of the aircraft. Marshall's are the engineering honchos and it is they who hold the authorities to carry out maintenance ? Assuming they are then surely it is possible for the club to pay Marshalls to carry out anti det runs/ servicing etc until a new trust or whatever is formed. Chin up boys and girls! The end of XH558 is not nigh.

A REALIST has posted!

Sounds more like a view through those rose tinted glasses that you speak of.

Seems a bit odd to me that the club would be withholding funds from the Vulcan appeal.
Unless of course the club want the trust to go into administration so they can take over perhaps.

Very curious.

[Panel 10]

The end of the trust would not mean the end of the aircraft. Marshall's are the engineering honchos and it is they who hold the authorities to carry out maintenance ? Assuming they are then surely it is possible for the club to pay Marshalls to carry out anti det runs/ servicing etc until a new trust or whatever is formed. Chin up boys and girls! The end of XH558 is not nigh.

"The Trust is the only organisation certified by CAA, Marshalls etc) to maintain and operate 558".

The CAA have already more than approved the management of 558 and have cited the The Vulcan To The Sky Trust as a role model for running a complex airframe. What experience can a 'newbie' company offer the CAA, who have the final say, to gain their confidence and how long would it take to do so? Taff and his engineers are TVOC employees a part of the Trust, not Club employees.

[Saracenman]

in reply to the question "how much is 558 worth?" - Dr. Pleming has quoted the figure of £10m as the value of 558 as an 'asset'

that valuation was placed on her as a FLYABLE aeroplane, which currently she is not. even with the new leg from Kearsley's, 558 only has about ten flying hours on her airframe without the planned mods

the chances of 558 ever going to Murkinland are very slim, whatever Dr. Pleming threatens - for a start, how would she GET there without a serviceable u/c leg - and with such few flying hours left, without the mods, why would any Murkin even be interested - especially given our tame Murkin's comment that most don't know what 558 is!

i think anyone who knows ANYTHING about aviation in the UK will immediately realise that 558 will only ever leave Lyneham, fully serviceable, in the hands of Martin Withers wearing a VTST (whoever may be at the helm ) flying suit, or in the back of several skips. there IS no in between I'm afraid

as to whether the 'current bunch' are the best option to see 558 fly again - well, without any money, NO-ONE can fly her, and VTST have no money. as the VTST stand, they hemorrhage money from every pore, whereas a slick new EFFICIENT and BUSINESS-orientated team would inevitably burn less money than the existing VTST

is VTST goes 'tits-up', the Club can still survive (the ONLY component of VTS that can generate an income), as will Marshalls (the design authority), the CAA too (the rule-makers) and the RAF will still be there as well (558's current 'host' and one of her biggest supporters!)

the infrastructure will still remain, even if VTST doesn't. if the Club has any contingency reserves, we CAN pay Marshalls to continue anti-dets, we CAN pay aircrew expenses, rent, heat, etc. all that would change if VTST fold, is a handful of cash-burning inefficient employees, with very little experience in running "a one aircraft airline" loosing their jobs

I'm far more concerned about Taff & Co loosing their jobs, rather than DR. P or AE - the latter can be found on any street corner (metaphorically) whilst the World only contains a finite number of people LEGALLY qualified to tighten Vulcan nuts - we currently employ them!

somehow, and I'm not a betting man but am prepared to make an exception, i just KNOW that, if VTST do struggle on, but have to cut costs, we'll see QUALIFIED engineers depart before we see a single manager clear his/her desk!

in conclusion, if we want to have a better chance of seeing 558 fly every year for years to come, dump the current lot and bring in some BUSINESS men/women. if we want to see (at best) VTST survive, but go through exactly the same issue again in eight/ten/twelve months' time, stick with what we've got

they've had many years to get this right and haven't once shown any hint of doing so to date!

sm

[Stigish]

I completely agree with what SM says, and I still class my self as a bit of a fence sitter .

I do think Panel 10 is failing to notice the point everyone is most of us are putting across...........
If the Trust folded and, for example a new owner purchased said Aircraft, the staff who matter will still be involved (if they wanted to be). I'd bet my life on people like Smiler staying on to maintain and operate her whoever owned her, so as long as she could fly.

I also fail to see why the CAA would not permit her to fly if someone else purchased her making sure the Engineers, Crew, and generally anyone who is involved in the successful HANDS ON running of 558 continued on to do thier jobs. Afterall the team who keep her airworthy are the people that should be getting the credit from the CAA. The Trust should only get credit from the CAA for hiring these people in the first place.

Back on topic(ish)

I ask anyone to consider this example:
In your job you have a target. If you hit that target you get paid 100% of your salary = You are doing your job properly.
If you continually fail to hit your target, Should you still be paid 100% of your salary?
Following that. Do you still deserve to have the job if you can't do it properly?

If the Trust are not doing their job properly, why should they deserve praise?
They are being re-active in a world were only pro-active people get the best results.

Stigish

[Air]

if the Club has any contingency reserves, we CAN pay Marshalls to continue anti-dets, we CAN pay aircrew expenses, rent, heat, etc. all that would change if VTST fold, is a handful of cash-burning inefficient employees, with very little experience in running "a one aircraft airline" loosing their jobs

There's that word IF.
I ask DOES the club have any contingency reserves, and for how long could they keep things ticking over?

I do think Panel 10 is failing to notice the point everyone is most of us are putting across...........
If the Trust folded and, for example a new owner purchased said Aircraft, the staff who matter will still be involved (if they wanted to be). I'd bet my life on people like Smiler staying on to maintain and operate her whoever owned her, so as long as she could fly.

And what makes you think people will be queuing up with £10 million to buy the aircraft?

So far all we've heard is 'if the club has reserves' and people assuming that new owners will buy it (and fairly quickly).
There's nothing really concrete to suggest the Vulcan would be better off without VTST, and that's what worries me.

And suppose the club did keep things ticking over. Would they have a say in who could buy the aircraft?
The club could potentially spend a lot of money keeping the aircraft going, only for a new buyer (if one ever came along) to come and take it away from the UK.

There's far too many pitfalls here to suggest things would be any better.

[Dan4th]

A new buyer would not be required, only a
new "Trustee" of the aircraft which belongs,
after all, to the British People. The only
reason to sell 558 would be to settle debts.
Her value far exceeds any debts there might
be, and as far as I can see there may be none.
I'm sure someone can answer the debt question.
I do know that the Club has a cash flow and
reserves. I also know there are many people
who would be far more inclined to support
the Club financially over the Trust as things
currently stand -- in other words, that cash flow
might suddenly have a substantial increase.
I would bet on it, in fact....

Danf.

[Dougs]

i have maintained an upbeat opinoin of 558 for the last 7 years however i would have to say that the current conditions point to only one conclusion that is that the 558 project will probably fail i hate to say it but i think that the project is dead in the water man im on a downer at the mo!!!! has anyone got some good news?