TSR2

[Mackrick]

[Saracenman]

what still amazes and mystifies me is that, considering the disgraceful approach by the gov't at the time of TSR2's cancellation ("everything must be scrapped" ) - how did anything survive?

let alone two largely complete airframes!

obviously there were some forward-thinking people at the time who chose to disobey orders! but how the hell do you conceal 2 TSR2's??????????

sm

[Mackrick]

Well one of them flew on after the cancellation to allow them to get data for future use... not 2 sure about the other one. I know the duxford one the boxes turned up years later and were then fitted back to the airframe. There are other bits and pieces that still survive, engines, ejection seats, canopies etc. Remember as a kid seeing the old airframes at Shoeburyness that were used for target practice. I do have a few more photos but need t get them scanned in. I do remember that in 1981 ? the Conservatives looked at reinstating the project including modernising it to bring it up to date. At least some of the avionics and flying control PFCU's lived on in Jaguar / Tornado. Somewhere I have one of the aircrew tech manuals and a copy of a sales brochure, when I find them will see if I can scan them.

[Saracenman]

that would make for interesting reading Mackrick

i DO know that the only one to fly (XR219 i think) ended her days at Shoeburyness. the surviving airframes never flew at all - not even sure that they even taxiied

perhaps if the gov't hadn't stuck their noses in from day one,and had more faith in our world-leading aviation industry, we might have been a little better off now!

TSR2 was way ahead of her time in every respect - and yet our advantage was purposefully smashed to bits!

sm

[Mackrick]

Well what officially happened and what did are 2 different things.
I worked with a guy at RAF Abingdon in the late 70's who was on the TSR2 project and he told me some great stories about things that should have been destroyed following the cancelation. Have seen photos of things that might or might not have happened
Until about 6 months ago I worked with an Avionics guy (BAE) who also worked on TSR2 and had similar stories to tell

[Mayfly]

I know the government of the day binned the TSR2 but I don't know the politics involved I have looked on line but it all looks a bit long winded, could some one give me a short potted history, pretty please

[Saracenman]

I know the government of the day binned the TSR2 but I don't know the politics involved I have looked on line but it all looks a bit long winded, could some one give me a short potted history, pretty please

lots of things conspired against TSR2.............

[nutshell]

it was at the time that most of our aviation industry was being amalgamated into one huge BAC - the gov't decreed who did what, but there appeared to be no logic to it - Vickers were made the principle contractor, yet had no experience with supersonic a/c, unlike EE who played second fiddle!

the whole programme was 'steered' by committee, with predictable results! one classic example was one of the design meetings; the chairman counted 56 people in the room and, realising it would be impossible to conduct a meeting with SO many people, he adjourned the meeting stating "come back in 2 weeks, and i only want to see those DIRECTLY involved in the next meeting" two weeks pass, and 63 turn up!

so much ridiculousness went on that inevitably, the project was over budget and over schedule. despite having a very capable and promising a/c, the gov't pulled the plug!

in truth, it was either TSR2 or Concorde - we couldn't afford them both, but (at our stipulation!) there was a costly get-out clause in our Anglo-Frog Concorde agreement which would've cost us a fortune to pull out- so TSR2 lost out to Concorde!

also at the time, our gov't had applied for a hefty loan from the World Bank. it is said that the Murkins put considerable pressure on us to cancel TSR2, or they wouldn't support our loan application. the reasoning behind this is that TSR2 represented SERIOUS competition to their F1-11. so they had us over a barrel really and, after TSR2 was cancelled, we order F1-11 on the grounds that they'd be cheaper and in service much sooner.

of course that never happened!

it's still reckoned that TSR2 would've been cheaper, in service sooner, and DEFINITELY more capable! even so, the RAF ended up with the Buccaneer - which they never wanted in the first place!

there's also a rumour that Lord Mountbatten went on a world 'anti-TSR2' sales trip - trying to flog Buccaneer instead (to lower the unit cost to the RN) whilst it's difficult to believe, the Australians certainly did cancel their order for TSR2, but i personally believe that they got wind of the cancellation rather than because of what Mountbatten told them! the net result was that they bought F1-11 anyway!

add to all that the WAY in which TSR2 was cancelled - the gov't were clearly determined to kill it off completely (with no chance of resurrection by a later gov't) - they ordered the complete destruction of EVERYTHING - all airframes, components, jigs, tooling - the works!

all an utter disgrace!

[/nutshell]

sm

[Mayfly]

thanks SM, interesting isn't it why decisions are made they way they are & why so many times we shoot ourselves in the foot

[Saracenman]

yeah quite - we seem to be experts at it!

incidentally, as an example of just how 'good' TSR2 was, on one of the early test flights, TP Roland Beamont lit just ONE of the Olympus reheats and the chase Lightning couldn't catch it with BOTH Avon reheats lit

BAC proposed a fixed rate to keep XR219 flyable as a research a/c, but the offer was 'declined' - what a shame, as with the F1-11 over-runs resulting in us cancelling our order...............well, who knows!

much of the engine development data went on to assist the Concorde programme,and much of the new wiggly amps found their way into Tornado some years later - so TSR2 wasn't a complete loss.

over all, it really was WAY ahead of all other a/c - so many new concepts and ideas were first dreamt up for TSR2.i have no doubt that it would still be in service today, and probably with more airforces than just the RAF.

shameful - all of it

sm

[Mayfly]

having read & digested this morning what you said SM how come we ended with the Buccaneer rather than the F1-11?

I know a few Buccaneer pilots by the way who absolutely loved it

[Saracenman]

two answers really.

despite the Bucc being a very capable machine, much loved by those who operated it, it always remained an a/c developed for the RN and for a very different role than that which TSR2 would've fulfilled.

even so, what else did we have? TSR2 was cancelled, as was the purchase of F1-11 - the gap that TSR2 left was eventually filled by BOTH F4 Phantom and Bucc.

the other reason was that TSR2 was to have been a nuclear bomber, and the Bucc was the only a/c on the books that came anywhere near close in terms of payload and purpose. there was a lot of conjecture at the time as to what tactical nuclear weapons we would hold in our armouries and, for virtually all of TSR2 development, we had no defined weapon for TSR2 to carry. the politicians were largely against tactical nuclear weapons, whilst the RAF and RN both disagreed, but each had different requirements. all this hooha led to much political turmoil, including the infamous "night of the long knives"

interestingly, had TSR2 survived, it would've replaced the entire V Force much sooner than was eventually the case with Tornado; in fact Tornado might never have been at all! Black Buck may have been very different - in fact it may not have been possible with TSR2, even with AAR. who knows?

sm

[Mackrick]

If you want to know all the ins and outs of the politics then the book to read is *Murder of the TSR2" of which I have a copy It is a real eye opener as to what really went on.

[Saracenman]

I've not read the book Mackrick, but the author (can't recall his name) was included in an excellent programme i have on it - I'll see if i can chop it up and shove it on yootoob

sm

[Mackrick]

go fpr it SM

[Mayfly]

If you want to know all the ins and outs of the politics then the book to read is *Murder of the TSR2" of which I have a copy It is a real eye opener as to what really went on.

whos the author MR sound like a good read that will appeal to me

[Mackrick]

This is the book I have

The Murder of TSR-2 - Stephen Hastings - Macdonald, London 1966

A copy is not cheap though

http://www.amazon.co.uk/murder-TSR-2-Stephen-Hastings/dp/B0000CN7BO

Another couple you might like have read them but do not have any copies

TSR-2 Phoenix or Folly? - Frank Barnett Jones - GMS Entertrises 1994 - ISBN: 187038427X

TSR-2 with Hindsight - The Royal Air Force Historical Society 1998 - ISBN: 0951982486

[Saracenman]

right - you've reminded me Mackrick - i will rip that DVD tonight and see if i can yootoob it

[Mayfly]

This is the book I have

The Murder of TSR-2 - Stephen Hastings - Macdonald, London 1966

A copy is not cheap though

http://www.amazon.co.uk/murder-TSR-2-Stephen-Hastings/dp/B0000CN7BO

Another couple you might like have read them but do not have any copies

TSR-2 Phoenix or Folly? - Frank Barnett Jones - GMS Entertrises 1994 - ISBN: 187038427X

TSR-2 with Hindsight - The Royal Air Force Historical Society 1998 - ISBN: 0951982486

ummmmmm at £200 I think I might give it a miss - wonder if I can it through the library

[Mackrick]

Have seen it Libraries before so would be worth a try MF

[Mayfly]

aha book duly ordered from the library the only copy in Lincolnshire is whizzing its way to me

[Saracenman]

just chopping the video up now (now that I've found it! ) - will post it on youtube and stick the links on here

sm

[Mackrick]

Thanks SM

[Saracenman]

as promised - TSR2

Part 1


Part 2:


Part 3


Part 4


Part 5


Part 6


sm

[RDS]

Hi all.

I showed these to Wedgy on another forum, and he suggested you guys would like to see them.

They are from an edition of Air International. It's a massive eight page feature, all about the TSR2, from it's conception to the sad decision to cancel the project.

Enjoy!

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b103/RDSdaEAGLE/TSR2/

[Mackrick]

[drool mode on]

SM / RDS fantastic

[drool mode off]