Conways

[Gully]

I posted this over on the VTST Forum, but thought I'd put it here too as I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of a different audience...

Okay, before anyone gets the impression that I'm making a suggestion here, I'm not! This is purely a hypothetical question - an engineering exercise if you like!

As we all know, XH558's operational life and display performances are dictated by the rarity of her RR Bristol Olympus engines and the life limitations imposed on them by RR (despite being de-rated, a "crude" cycles limit is in place). Now, back in the late 1950's when the Vulcan B2 variant was being developed by Avro, RR made a play for the B2 to have the same engines as those installed in the Victor B2, namely RR Conways. Avro stuck to their guns and proceeded with the Bristol Olympus: initially the 200 series, then the 301's.

Whilst '558 is the only aircraft anywhere in the world flying with RR Bristol Olympus engines, RR Conways are still in service with the RAF, powering the VC10 tankers. I understand that RR no longer supports the Conways directly, but a third party holds the approvals to support, service, maintain and overhaul the type, so there is a supply of zero-hour engines available and the Conway's wear data is known.

My question is, aside from the BAe and CAA permissions needed and the obvious cost, how difficult would it be to re-engine '558 with RR Conways and what would be involved from an engineering perspective? Furthermore, would / could this extend her flying life significantly and enable a more spirited display?

No doubt just the thought is sacrilege to many, but I really am asking only out of curiosity!

Thanks,

Gully


Cheers,

Gully

[Xplumberlives]

Yes I saw you post over there and wondered if you would chance our take on it. I note you stress it was just a HYPOTHETICAL question! Which as usual IanM seems to have overlooked! LOL

Wow the performance would have been WONDERFUL, nice to dream isn't it?

[Spitfire]

What a brilliant idea though - it seems so simple .... but it probably isn't

[Saracenman]

one for Mackrick to answer i suspect really, but i don't think there's much mileage in thinking along the re-engine lines.

what i have always thought however is that there is a small chance that RR/CAA/MA etc could possibly look at using the existing Conway refurbishment as a potential route to refurbishing the EXISTING Olympus engines. it would be hugely expensive, but the fact that Conways (which are of the same engineering 'era') are already routinely rebuilt for VC10 - the actual technology still exists.

I'm sure that it was Mackrick who told me that each VC10 Conway costs over £1m to rebuild - and that's using tools that still exist! FFM has told us many times before that no such tooling exists for Olympus

the two engines i believe are hugely different, and to refurbish 558's eight Olympus would cost tens of millions in retooling etc - before you actually get to touching the engines themselves!

given the agreement of RR, CAA etc - and if we could raise enough money - I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible! amazingly difficult though!

so, as nice an idea as it may be, it is highly unlikely - but never say never!

sm

[Mackrick]

Well the conways are on their last legs really. Shortage of bits etc. Also remember that as the VC10 reaches it out of service date 2014 ish then prior to that the engine supply would have been terminated. As each aircraft leaves the service then they will be spares recovered. This would leave spare engines with hours on them to keep the rest of the fleet flying. So don't think this would be a starter. Of course if money was no object then anything is possible.

[Gully]

Well the conways are on their last legs really. Shortage of bits etc. Also remember that as the VC10 reaches it out of service date 2014 ish then prior to that the engine supply would have been terminated. As each aircraft leaves the service then they will be spares recovered. This would leave spare engines with hours on them to keep the rest of the fleet flying. So don't think this would be a starter. Of course if money was no object then anything is possible.

As I said in the original post, I wasn't suggesting actually doing it, just wondering what the physical engineering implications of the re-engining would be.

Gully

[Ducati Boy]

Well the conways are on their last legs really. Shortage of bits etc. Also remember that as the VC10 reaches it out of service date 2014 ish then prior to that the engine supply would have been terminated. As each aircraft leaves the service then they will be spares recovered. This would leave spare engines with hours on them to keep the rest of the fleet flying. So don't think this would be a starter. Of course if money was no object then anything is possible.

As I said in the original post, I wasn't suggesting actually doing it, just wondering what the physical engineering implications of the re-engining would be.

Gully

I think it has been answered before on VTST forum by Flipflopman during the restoration phase. The actual engineering is no doubt feasible, subject to the Conway actually being able to fit in the engine bay. However, that is the easy bit. The subsequent cost of re-design of airframe adaption, electrical generation, engine control, avionics and fuel systems, as well as ground support equipment, would send any MA design bill through the stratosphere. One of the main reasons we had to minimise and avoid any modifications during the recovery to flight was simply due to the unbelieveably expensive charges imposed by MA for any design and development work.

In short, yes it could be done, but the cost, as usual would be the driver!

[Saracenman]

i think the complexity (and therefore cost) would far outweigh the benefits

as i said before, the best way to think of Conway, in respect of 558, is not using Conway to replace Olympus, but as an example of how such engines CAN be rebuilt, given the tooling and money!

to retool and reproduce all the bits necessary to refurbish one Olympus (IF RR were to agree) might be £100m (a figure i recall FFM using before) - to design, undertake AND certify the necessary alterations to 558 to take Conway could easily be double that!

the fact that RR 'ok' the refurbishment of Conways by a subcontractor, could well be beneficial to any future idea of refurbishing 558 existing eight Olympus - but an awful lot of boxes would have to be ticked to get that far, not least of which would be the required funds!

don't forget that 558's new tyres cost (forgive me Mr. Smiler if I've remembered this incorrectly!) in excess of £30,000 - that was re-tooling - and they threw the actual tyres in for free!

imagine the costs involved in re-manufacturing Olympus turbine blades, shafts, bearing etc etc - but that would be a fraction of the total costs involved in completely redesigning the propulsion system of a Vulcan - the necessary design drawings, approval, the engineering itself, flight testing etc. and on top of all that, you'd have to buy a large quantity of Conways to make it worthwhile anyway!

sm