Lightning Tales

[MOD]

Can anyone corroborate these stories?

1) I have just read a book where a Lightning Jock describes an incident where, if the rumours are true, a USAFE C-130 was shot down by a QRA Lightning somewhere over the Atlantic. The Lightning was being flown by an unknown USAFE pilot and the C-130 had , apparently, been 'stolen'.

2) This story I am fairly sure is true as a) I have some corroborative, photographic evidence, and b) part of the incident is described in Ian Black's autobiography.

Jon Fynes was the last Lightning display pilot but he was perhaps more famous at Binbrook as the guy who caused an F6 to be scrapped after he had 'bent' the airframe pulling 13Gs. The photo I have shows his name in white lettering under the cockpit, in his replacement F6, as J (13G) Fynes.
The details were told to me by Flt Lt Andy Stacy who had been grounded for 'making a noise' over Lincoln and as part of his punishment he had to escort half a dozen of us 'Press' photographers around Binbrook just before it closed.

The story he told was that Jon (13G) Fynes was on an exercise ( Priory/Elder Forest etc) and his role was to defend Binbrook from the attacking (enemy) forces - Hawk T1As if I remember correctly. The story goes that he got onto the tail of an enemy aircraft and entered low cloud on full re-heat. At some stage he must have become disorientated as he was seen to exit the cloud layer, which was around 1000ft, going straight down and still in full re-heat. He chose to stay with his Lightning and as he tried to pull up he hit 13G and 'bent ' the airframe.

He landed safely but the Lightning was scrapped. Here is a shot of his last Lightning mount showing JPS (13G) Fynes under his cockpit.



BTW there are some excellent personal stories here. http://www.lightning.org.uk/tales.html


ibw

[Xplumberlives]

I've heard the 13G story before, but not the downed C130 one!

[Jigsaw]

I've heard the 13G story before, but not the downed C130 one!

Same here. Would be interested to know.

[Xplumberlives]

Ian, there are various references to a USAFE C130 being shot down by either a Lightning or a Phantom!

Seems to have come down near Alderney, Channel Islands!

Appears to have been taken by a disgruntled Yank!

Personally I feel it may be one of those urban myths Mate!

Although just to add to the intrigue, I'll add this;



Just read one article from an airman who worked with Meyer, apparently two F100s from Lakenheath were sent to down the C130!

[MOD]

Whilst there is some truth in this story it could be a question of 2+2=5.

The pilot's story is in The Lightning Boys: Chapter 7 to be exact. Rick Groombridge was a Lightning pilot with 29(F) Squadron based at RAF Wattisham. His story goes that one night whilst on QRA readiness he received a call from the Duty Controller telling him not to ask any questions but to just do as he was told. He would be visited by an American exchange officer and you are to hand over your duties to him and stand down to the Officers Mess.
No questions to be asked.
The American officer arrived and Groombridge retired to the Officers Mess.
Soon he heard a Lightning start up and taxy out from the 'Q' sheds.
Less than an hour later it returned and the Duty Officer rang him in the mess telling him to resume his QRA duty.

Apparently some time later there was a BBC news story about a USAF top-sergeant who was based at Mildenhall. He had been refused Christmas leave and on the pre-text of taking a C-130 for a taxy test (which he was qualified to do) he took off and headed for the States (which he was not obviously qualified to do).
The C-130 crashed into the Atlantic.
Word then leaked out that the Lightning that Groombridge had handed over to the unknown American pilot had returned with only one missile and the pilot had then taxied straight to the airfield missile site. When it arrived back at the 'Q' sheds it had the full complement of 2 missiles in place.

As Groombridge says at the end of his story, "if the speculation was true then, if nothing else, it proved that for once one of the bloody missiles had actually worked."

ibw

[Xplumberlives]

Sorry to say I personally feel that the F100s from Lakenheath were more likely to have gone after the Herc.

I find it hard to believe that a NON LIGHTNING PILOT could just jump in to something so unforgiving and chase the Herc down!

It seems to be reasonably certain that there was a C130 that was taken without consent, but whether it crashed or was shot down, I guess we will never know for certain.

[MOD]

The American exchange pilot came here to fly Lightnings would be my guess.

Steve Bond (in 2006) confirms that it was a Wattisham Lightning that was involved.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archiv ... 55169.html

Keep digging. "The Truth is out There"


ibw

[Xplumberlives]

Yes i've heard of the Wattisham connection, but still feel that unless the EXCHANGE pilot was employed on lightnings, i.e. actually on an exchange posting it's still pushing things beyond belief! You have to be current on a type of aircraft!

[MOD]

As this incident happened in the 60s there were only Lightnings there for him to fly on exchange.

EDIT:
On further thought I agree with XPL that surely an exchange pilot, even with a few hours under his belt, would not be allowed to commandeer a QRA Lightning at short notice. That would only leave the back up aircraft and what if there was a live QRA scramble and this back-up went tits-up?)

The thing that raises my disbelief in this story is the number of people who had to be 'in the know'. ie Flight Controllers etc and surely a Victor tanker would have been needed?

But if the Yank didn't go after the stolen C-130, then where did he go to fire that missile? This was late on a Saturday night and no other 'QRA' scrambles had been called before or after the Yank took off.

If I had not read this story from an RAF Lightning pilot who was there that night I would have said that this 'incident' was even more unlikely to be true. But his story gives it some credibility. EDIT: but not much imho

Still digging.


ibw

[Xplumberlives]

As this incident happened in the 60s there were only Lightnings there for him to fly on exchange.

EDIT:
On further thought I agree with XPL that surely an exchange pilot, even with a few hours under his belt, would not be allowed to commandeer a QRA Lightning at short notice. That would only leave the back up aircraft and what if there was a live QRA scramble and this back-up went tits-up?)

The thing that raises my disbelief in this story is the number of people who had to be 'in the know'. ie Flight Controllers etc and surely a Victor tanker would have been needed?

But if the Yank didn't go after the stolen C-130, then where did he go to fire that missile? This was late on a Saturday night and no other 'QRA' scrambles had been called before or after the Yank took off.

If I had not read this story from an RAF Lightning pilot who was there that night I would have said that this 'incident' was even more unlikely to be true. But his story gives it some credibility. EDIT: but not much imho

Still digging.


ibw

Keep DIGGING Mate, glad you added those edits!

[Olicat]

Dad heard this story from an Aviation magazine in the 70s. He thinks it was F100(s) that downed a Homesick groundcrew member in a Herk.


Interesting thread I must say!

[Xplumberlives]

Dad heard this story from an Aviation magazine in the 70s. He thinks it was F100(s) that downed a Homesick groundcrew member in a Herk.


Interesting thread I must say!

Your Father is a VERY knowledgeable chap!

[Olicat]

You've confused me in saying that (just didn't sound quite right), I suppose I worded something wrongly in my previous post - if not then thanks on his behalf

I'll go back and check

EDIT: Nope, I'll go with the thanks on his behalf option.

[Xplumberlives]

You've confused me in saying that (just didn't sound quite right), I suppose I worded something wrongly in my previous post - if not then thanks on his behalf

I'll go back and check

Nothing sinister Mate, I think your Father and I concur on the F100s!

[Olicat]

Ah, I get it!

[MOD]

So Dave, are you now convinced that the story is not "an urban myth"

EDIT: Oli has Howard got any copies of Ken Ellis' Wrecks and Relics for the late 60s? It would be interesting to see if a C-130 crashed in mysterious circs in the Atlantic one Saturday night near Christmas '68 or '69.


ibw

[Xplumberlives]

So Dave, are you now convinced that the story is not "an urban myth"


ibw

I think that yes a Herc was "borrowed" and that it failed to make it to its destination, I would also feel that the F100 option was the most likely outcome!

Interesting though!

[MOD]

So that's a yes then?

ibw

[Xplumberlives]

So that's a yes then?

ibw

A guarded yes!

[MOD]

I am still digging.

You are coming round to NOT believing this was an 'urban myth' but I am coming round to think that it was - the shooting down part I mean.

A non-com , single-handedly, takes a C-130 and tries to fly to the USA on a winter's night from the UK. Without help from flight controllers, a navigator, a full fuel load? etc. I don't think anyone had to shoot the poor fool down. If F-100s, or any other aircraft, were involved it would be surely to monitor his flight (crash) which was surely doomed as soon as he took off.

As I said in the beginning with this story , surely 2+2=5.

ibw

[Xplumberlives]

I am still digging.

You are coming round to NOT believing this was an 'urban myth' but I am coming round to think that it was - the shooting down part I mean.

A non-com , single-handedly, takes a C-130 and tries to fly to the USA on a winter's night from the UK. Without help from flight controllers, a navigator, a full fuel load? etc. I don't think anyone had to shoot the poor fool down. If F-100s, or any other aircraft, were involved it would be surely to monitor his flight (crash) which was surely doomed as soon as he took off.

As I said in the beginning with this story , surely 2+2=5.

ibw

YES, I concur with your synopsis!

[MOD]

Thanks Dave. You prompted me to dig a bit further. What threw me was the 'first-hand' account from a Lightning pilot regarding the strange appearance of a USAF exchange pilot who took a Wattisham Lightning for a night-time sortie and who arrived back at base with either a Red Top or a Firestreak missile missing.

That and the BEEB story of a C-130 going AWOL and crashing into the Atlantic , with a p++sed off sergeant at the controls, at around the same time, seems to have spawned a lot of rumours.

As for the aircraft involved: I have read that the C-130 was shot down by Phantoms, F-86s and F-100s and, of course, a Wattisham Lightning.

Take your pick.

To sum up I believe that there was some truth in both these events ie a Wattisham Lightning had a secret flight and a C-130 was purloined by a home-sick USAF sergeant but I can't believe that these incidents were ever connected.


ibw

[Xplumberlives]

Thanks Dave. You prompted me to dig a bit further. What threw me was the 'first-hand' account from a Lightning pilot regarding the strange appearance of a USAF exchange pilot who took a Wattisham Lightning for a night-time sortie and who arrived back at base with either a Red Top or a Firestreak missile missing.

That and the BEEB story of a C-130 going AWOL and crashing into the Atlantic , with a p++sed off sergeant at the controls, at around the same time, seems to have spawned a lot of rumours.

As for the aircraft involved: I have read that the C-130 was shot down by Phantoms, F-86s and F-100s and, of course, a Wattisham Lightning.

Take your pick.

To sum up I believe that there was some truth in both these events ie a Wattisham Lightning had a secret flight and a C-130 was purloined by a home-sick USAF sergeant but I can't believe that these incidents were ever connected.

ibw

I don't think Phantoms were in service back then!

[MOD]

That's right, 1974 they arrived at Wattisham but they are suggested as a possible culprit in a couple of forums I have seen. Bentwaters received theirs in 1965.

ibw

[Sooty655]

The C130 was actually shot down accidentally by TSR2 on a test flight. That's why the Yanks insisted it was cancelled.

I thought everyone knew that.