Leuchars V Lossie

[Mayfly]

There was a parliamentary debate last night about keeping Leuchars or Lossie..
Here if you want to listen fast forward to about 10.00pm

I haven't heard it because you need Silverlight and I refuse at the minute to download another bloody programme - why can't we just have a couple of standard files to listen too

[Sploosher]

There was a parliamentary debate last night about keeping Leuchars or Lossie..
Here if you want to listen fast forward to about 10.00pm

I haven't heard it because you need Silverlight and I refuse at the minute to download another bloody programme - why can't we just have a couple of standard files to listen too

Same here, Thats why I WONT be updating my pc to windows 7, it does not support outlook express, my preferred email client.................

[Thumper]

Thanks for telling me it's around 10pm coz there's no way I am listening to those idiots for hours on end!

I shall try my best to type it out here:

Sir Campbell:

Mr. Speaker I am glad to have the opportunity to innitiate the debate into the future of Royal Airforce Leuchars which lies near St Andrews and my constituency of North East Fife.

A number of other honorable members have indicated a wish to make short interventions and I am happy that they should do so and in addition I hope the authority of the right honorable gentleman the member for kercordee (?) to say he he supports the campaign for the rention of the base.

I want to begin with the recognition of the professionalism and commitment of the men and women who serve at RAF Leuchars, who in recent weeks have endured a period of unecessary anxiety. I particularly wish to pay tribute to those members of treble 1 Sqdn whose time at Leuchars will come to an end in March and who have served the defence interests of the nation with distinction and effectiveness.

The reason I say unecessary anxiety is this; becaise I believe that the case for retention for RAF Leuchars is overwhelming. In short, Leuchars is in the right place, at the right time and doing the right job. Geographically it is uniquely positioned to fulfill the responsibility of the air defence for the northern half of the United Kingdom. A responsibility of which, even as we have this debate it fulfills 24 hours a day.

In particular, that responsibility now has to deal with the terrorist threat, something which is recognised in the strategic defence review as being a tier one threat and for one against which the most serious precautions require to be taken.

I give way to my honorable gentleman.

(Don't know his name, sorry)

Would you agree that this contribution has been further strengthened by the £27 million investment for the runway, the designation of Leuchars for the homebase of the squadron for the Eurofighter Typhoons and the excellent performance of the quick reaction alert force, in other words, RAF Leuchars is a strategic necessity for the effective defence of the UK.

Sir Campbell:

Thank you my honorable gentleman and I shall come to these points you refer to in a moment myself.

Why was Leuchars chosen? It was chosen to fulfill the responsibilities which have just been described by the honorable gentleman, because 80% of the Scottish population lives within 80 miles of Leuchars. Aircraft from Leuchars can be over Edingburgh and Glasgow the 2 major cities of the central belt of Scotland within a matter of a few minutes. And Leuchars has the capacity to protect the 2 most senisitve installations within that area, namely the Nuclear Power Station at Torness (?) and the Trident Submarine base at Fasleigh (?).

But we would do wrong to consider the responsibilites of Leuchars extend only to Scotland. The ark of responsibility of this air defense base extends far into Northern England, even some have said as far as Sunderland, covering very substantial populated areas.

Yes go for it?

(some Irish bloke)

Is it not the understanding as well that the coverage goes as far as Northern Ireland? Just for confirmation becaue I believe it does, can Mr. Campbell confirm that please?

Sir. Campbell:

I have been approaching this based on the speed of deployment within certain arks, the approach I understand is to take the base and draw a circle. But theres no doubt whatsoever because of it's operations over the sea then there may well be occassions where RAF Leuchars would be deployed for the prupose of protecting interests of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have heard no strategic argument for the closure of RAF Leuchars and I say for the strategic case of it's retention is exactly the same as the strategic case of it's selection for a role in which it now plays.It was chosen to be the home of 3 Typhoon Sqdns. One of these, 6th Sqdn is already there. It stood up on 6th September 2010 a matter of a few days before one of the last surviving airshows which drew a crowd of some 50,000 people, making it the second largest non-sporting event in Scotland, the largest being a Rock Venue entitled Tea in the Park (laughter).

But the fact that 50,000 people were able to go and watch it is a reflection of course on the geographical position which is occupies close to, adjacent to the main centres of population.

Leuchars was chosen too deputy speaker because it has ready access to training areas over land and over the north sea. It was chosen because it's local weather, it's particular climate is very suitable for flying operations.

As the honorable gentleman indicated in his intervention a moment ago, Leuchars has been chosen to perform 2 essential components of what is called by acronym QRA standing for Quick Reaction Alert. The first of these is to protect Northern Britain from unwelcome and illegal intrusion into United Kingdom Airspace and that is something of which it is called upon to do on an almost regular number of occassions as other Airforces seek to determine a state a readyness of the Royal Airforce to defend the Airspace of the United Kingdom.

The second part of the QRA is it's duty to protect from terrorist attack from the air, any mallying (?) effort to do damage to the fabric or indeed the population of the UK, A possibility of only a few years ago was thought to be so remote but not to be disregarded but now one has to unhappily be given more serious consideration because of the Twin Towers and the consequences of that attack.

It was chosen therefore, because the established strategic considerations were and remained favourable. It was chosen because the fact that 80% of the Scottish population live within 80 miles demonstrates the imediacey of the protection which it requires to provide. And as 111 Sqn to which I have already referred comes to the end of it's service at Leuchars then 6th Sqdn will take over. 111 Sqdn has been flying a Tornado F3, an aircraft which has given us valiant service since it's introduction but to the replaced by the Typhoon, formerly the Eurofighter the most modern and up to date aircraft available to the RAF.

Yes?

(Scottish guy)

The gentleman is making an extremely strong case for the retention of Leuchars which the SMP (?) support. But can I ask him while he is making his case, which is a very very strong case indeed, that he makes sure that he doesn't allow the government to play Lossiemouth off against Leuchars and that he will make the case for retention of all of the capacities we have and against the overall reduction of RAF footprint of Scotland.

Sir. Campbell:

I am an advocate for my constituency but I am also an advocate for the proper disposition of defence installations throughout the whole of Scotland. As the honorable gentleman knows, when there have been occassions that Lossiemouth, well there have been opportunities for joint political action when the leader of the Liberal Democrats in Scotland Tavish Scott has been christened (?)

But the honorable gentleman allows me to make another point, which is that the case for Leuchars and it's retention is supported by members of all political parties and of none, of which I will refer to that a little further when I come to discuss the impact on the local community.

As 111 Tornado Sqdn has disbanded, 6th Sqdn flying the Typhoon will take over. It's already filling these responsibilities of the QRA, at New Year one of the Typhoons had to be scrambled in order to fulfill the obligation of the QRA and between them, of the 2 Sqdns, they are working up to a point where the 6th Sqdn will assume responsibility and 111 will stand down.

But Leuchars is also a centre of defence excellence, apart from 6th Sqdn and 111 Sqdn, it houses 71 T.A engineer regiments, something of which I know will interest you Mr. Speaker because of your interest in the territorial army. It houses 58th Sqdn of the RAF, 612 Auxillery Sqdn recently back from Afghanistan, the Universities Air Sqdns in Scotland, Air Cadets, Mountain Rescue and very shortly No. 6th Force Protection Wing will accompany 58th Sqdn to Afghanistan in March 2011.

I take this public opportunity to wish them gods speed and a safe return. (Here Here)

Of course the speculation has brought about great uncertainty in the local community, an economic impact study is in the course of being prepared by Fife council and I understand may be published within the next few days.

I shall ensure that the Minister receives a copy hot off the press.

We all know that any closure of any base brings impact but to illistrate the nature of the impact to which Leuchars may give rise, in the Leuchars primary school, more than 80% of the children come from RAF families and in the nearby village of Garbridge (?) a substantial percentage of the children there are also from RAF families. There's a long history of tradition and integration between the base and the local community which a heavy accent on charitable activities all of which helps to create a bond of riendship and respect between the community and base.

There has recently been opened a new community centre, outside the wire so that it can be available to be both military and civilians and I had the honour of opening that in October of last year and perhaps very much more mundanely but of great tactical assistance, during the recent snow storms, personnel from RAF Leuchars were deployed to Edinburgh in order to help clear away the environs of hospitals so that patients and ambulances could make easier access.

Now the arrival of 6th Sqdn did not take place without some consequences and these are to be found in the costs, as the honorable gentleman said, the runway has been resurfaced, a new building programme has nearly been completed, I saw evidence of that myself on Monday when I visited the base in the company of the Right Honorable Gentleman, the Secretary of State for Scotland, and reasonable estimates show that some £40 million has been spent on RAF Leuchars is recent years and as part of these preparations.

In addition, there is intesive training not only for Aircrew but for Engineers and Ground Support and Leuchars is also to be the subject of additional investments in Information Technology for the purpose of improving communications which of course are so essential in the successful deployment of Military Force.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Ministers have consistently said that decisions on RAF Bases will be made on sound defence principles. I ask myself and I ask the government, what sound defense principle justifies reversal of a decision recently made to deploy 3 Sqdns of Eurofighter Typhoons at Leuchars, recently made and paid for to confirm Leuchars as an essential component of the UK's air defense. And that, on a base that for many years has fulfilled that responsibility with professionalism, commitment and distinction.

I have an alternative prinicple, if I may, to offer the Ministry of Defense which is this. If it's not broke, then don't fix it.

Someone else is talking, dunno who he is.

He thanked Sir. Campbell for his debate and the services he offers to both the military and the civilians in his constituency.

"I recall a smiliar debate last year over the future of RAF Marham. I asked the gentleman to conduct the debate in a sensible and considerate manner so that we did not end up with community pitted against community and I think the right honorable gentleman has done a superb job tonight in articulating his case without seeking to disparage the case of another base which may be under some threat. Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister will obviously be aware of the concern that is felt on both sides of the house by members from all parties that there is perhaps some confusion as to the governments thinking and the priority that will be provided to any decision making.

The Chief Secretary of the Treasury has suggested that decisions may be made on the social economic basis that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have said it will be a financial decision whereas the Minister and the Secretary of State have said that it will be a Defence driven decision.

I hope perhaps tonight that when the Minister when he responds will be able to give some clarity as of the waiting that will be provided to each of those categories. He will also be aware, as I'm sure you are Mr. Deputy Speaker of the opposals from this side of the house on the Armed Forces Bill that we will seek to place onto a statutory footing the base closure programme. I do not seek to rehearse the argument that the honorable gentleman and I for North Wiltshire had on the Armed Forces Bill's second reading, beyond saying that I think all the communities up and down the UK that are under some threat of closure would benefit if the government accepted some reasoned ammendement to the Armed Forces Bill that would provide a transparent and clear process.

And it would perhaps be helpful tonight if the Minister when he responds to outline the governments latest thinking over whether or not he is now prepared to accept such an ammendment to the Bill.

As I move to close, the other final question I have perhaps we should propose to the Minister when he comes to reply is obviously the continued uncertainty as the honorable gentleman has mentioned as to the time scale of the decision making process, the rather regrettable and unfortunate incident before Christmas where a Scottish Newspaper seemed to have required some coherant information about decisions that may have been made and you will recall the S.O 24 (?) debate we had around that issue. It would be helpful if the Minister could outline what the timetable will be for any such decision and will he also, as I'm sure he will, that he will do all within his powers to ensure that those com,unities which are affected are the first to know rather than the media outlets. Thank you.

Another different guy now:

Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would like to commend with right honorable and learned friend the member for North East Fife for innititating the debate on the future of RAF Leuchars which the house will understand is an issue very important to his constituency but also if I might say so more widely than that. My right honorable friend knows Leuchars very well and I hope that during his visit yesterday with the Scottish Secretary that he saw once more what a fantastic job our personnel are doing. I'd like to put on record my thanks to all those who work at RAF Leuchars and to the local community who have over the years given such strong support to the station, to the RAF and to the nation and I know this support is appreciated by all who are currently serving at the base.

RAF Leuchars has a long and honorable history of Aircraft from Leuchars have policed UK airspace for nearly 60 years demonstrating the ability to intercept unidentified aircraft and thereby providing an effective detterant. Given RAF Leuchars history and contribution to defence it's understandable that my right honorable friend has spoken so passionately about it's retention both here in parliament and in representations to me and the Secretary of State.

In October we published the Strategic Defence and Security Review, which was based upon 2 clear priorities, supporting our mission in Afghanistand and setting th path to cohereant and affordable defense capability in 2020 and beyond. This took place amongst the governments clear determination to address the unpresidented fiscal deficit we inherited. Every department has had contribution and the MOD is playing it's part. But because of the opriority we place on security the defence budget is making a more modest contribution to deficit reduction than any other department. But even so this regrettably has meant tough decisions, it is painful but we have to make sacrifices to get the economy and the defense programme back on track.

Our fleet of Harrier and Tornado Air Defence and Ground Attack aircraft have perforemed magnificently over 30 years. But those aircraft are risked as becoming outdated as threats continue to become more varied and **** and maintenance of the fleets will become more of a challenge. So the decision to retire the Harriers and reduce the number of Tornado's were difficult but we have to focus resources where tey are most needed now in support of our current operations.

The RAF plans to make a transition to a fast ket force comprising the Typhoon and the Joint Strike Fighter by the end of this decade. This makes both operational and economic sense. But we know from our work on the STSR (?) that RAF Kinloss and 2 other bases will no longer be needed by the RAF. Public and parliamentary attention has focused upon the consequences for Tornado ground attack bases at RAF Lossiemouth and Murray and RAF Marham in Norfolk and the base at Leuchars. Today RAF Leuchars aim is to maintain QRA concurrent with supporting Typhoon and other military operations. The delivery of the Northern Eliment of the QRA is RAF Leuchars top priority and requires Typhoon and Tornado F3 fighter aircraft to hold high alert to scramble and intercept unidentified aircraft approaching UK airspace. Mr. Deputy Speaker, RAF Leuchars is geographically well located for the delivery of QRA operations however it may be possible to mount QRA from another location, Lossiemouth and Leeming in North Yorkshire would be possible options. But as well as support for RAF Leuchars offered by the right honorable gentleman this evening, I have had similar representation from the honorable member of Murray regarding RAF Kinloss and RAF Lossiemouth and by my member for South West Norfolk regarding RAF Marham.

It is absolutely essential to stress once againto this house that a decision on which of these bases will no longer be required by the RAF should not be taken to mean that they will no longer be required for defence purposes.

*** At this point the player jumps around and scrambles the words, something is mentioned about STSR and re-basing the army from germany***

The MOD will need to dewtermine what makes the most sense for the structure of our armed forces including where they're based, where they need to train and operate from and insuring value for money for the British tax payer. Contrary to media speculation, no matter how informed members might have believed it to be, no decisions have been taken with regards to our future basing requirements beyond what I have just outlined. It will take time to work out which of the bases we will retain and the uses to which they will be put.

OK I really cannot type anymore as it's going on FOREVER!

[Mayfly]

Well thanks for that anyway Thumps - don't they love to hear their own voices! A lot of wind about the obvious so far then, As for spending £40 and resurfacing the runway it's well known fact they do that then decide to bin the Station!!

[Thumper]

The biggest problem is that they cannot take responsibility for their own decisions and mistakes. Like you say, someone approves a huge sum of money for re-surfacing the runway and a few months down the line the station is on the chopping board. How anyone can respect these "people" to make good tactical decisions is anyones guess!

Sir. Campbell was OK, he liked to go round in circles and repeat himself a lot but he did put a good strong and valid point across. The last guy to speak, I don't know who the hell he was, well he was just an idiot. He constantly ummed and ahhd before speaking and at times it sounded like he didn't really know what he was talking about. He kept saying "as I just mention, as I have already outlined" but he actually hadn't mentioned quite a lot and as for outlining things, he did not, he just made assumptions.

I found it really irritating to watch... must go post that in irritations now!

At least typing all that out kept me out of trouble for a good hour

[Aceyone]

Bluidy heck Thumps how long did that take ? Thankyou anyway,It seems obvious that Leuchars should remain open but I believe they WILL play Lossie and Leuchars against one another ,I used to love spotting at Lossie always something happening and excellent views

[Thumper]

Just under an hour. Got bored and my hands were cramping and despite the fact the player said it finished at 22:24 I was still typing come 22:46 so I decided to stop as I was getting increasingly pee'd off with that last guy as well

[Gaz]

Well thanks for that anyway Thumps - don't they love to hear their own voices! A lot of wind about the obvious so far then, As for spending £40 and resurfacing the runway it's well known fact they do that then decide to bin the Station!!

Wasn't Coltishall resurfaced, within a few months of closing?

[MOD]

Just watched the vid. 6 people in the house for this critical adjournment debate..

Lossie, Kinloss and Marham appear to be the Stations that the RAF (MOD) don't want anymore.

The locally affected MPs can debate and argue as much as they like but the MOD and, in particular, the Treasury will make the final decision - not the democratically elected politicians. One has to wonder, how is this democracy when our elected representatives are told by the civil servants at the Treasury what our national strategy must be? No Strategic Risk Assessment at all. Just 'bean counting' gone mad.

It might just make sense, if a persuasive Risk Assessment had been carried out, but it hasn't and why do we still insist on buying an obsolete Nuclear Deterrent from the USA which is still clearly aimed at the Soviet bloc which no longer exists.? BTW the main beneficiary of our Trident submarine deterrent would be whom - the USA of course.

Why are we still 'fighting' a Cold War scenario??

Nothing to do with our leaders losing prestige and their seat on the UN Security Council - if we do lose our ticket to the Nuclear club??? As if..

[Thumper]

Don't know but it's bullcr@p. "Long term policy" is also utter garbage. They state that the defense cuts are so that the RAF can move forward and make room for the JSF to join the Typhoon. WHY are we getting rid of perfectly good and capable aircraft when we don't even have the JSF and probably won't for quite some time?!

Are just a few bases with Typhoons really expected to defend and protect our country while someone sits there, crosses there fingers and says "oh don't worry, we're getting the JSF soon, not sure when but it'll be soon, hopefully, maybe". So what happens in the meantime? What happens if heaven forbid the UK comes under attack like New York did. Will we have enough facilities to protect our country?

What happens if Russia, Afghanistan, Iraq etc kicks off and drops a bloody great big bomb on us that starts WW3? Will the Prime Minister sit there and say "don't worry, it's OK, we have a handful of Typhoons on the job and hopefully before human life is extinct in the UK we might get the JSF"

[Jigsaw]

Add to that a very good time for Argentina to have another pop at the Falklands Thumper.......oh, hang on....it's ok, we still have a Vulcan.
As XPL rightly pointed out recently. Maybe we should stop fighting other people's wars etc and bring our people home to look after their own. Mind you, they would probably decide we have far too many forces people then and make CUTS

[Sploosher]

Well thanks for that anyway Thumps - don't they love to hear their own voices! A lot of wind about the obvious so far then, As for spending £40 and resurfacing the runway it's well known fact they do that then decide to bin the Station!!

Wasn't Coltishall resurfaced, within a few months of closing?

You can always tell when an RAF base is about to close and go to civvy hands, they spend a fortune upgrading everything

[Thumper]

Add to that a very good time for Argentina to have another pop at the Falklands Thumper.......oh, hang on....it's ok, we still have a Vulcan.
As XPL rightly pointed out recently. Maybe we should stop fighting other people's wars etc and bring our people home to look after their own. Mind you, they would probably decide we have far too many forces people then and make CUTS

Too bloody right. Makes me so angry!

[Hungry Haggis]

As an EX resident of the area covered by fall out if Leuchars was nuked I can't but agree with Sir ming .Having said that if they close shop there then conningsby is the nearest QRA base .Close all Jock bases and then where just where would the tanker take of from to meet the fighter as it shoots north on reheat detined to land in St.Andrews bay due to lack of Fuel or will they launch a tanker from London area an hour or so before the hooter goes sending a fighter jock running for said aircraft on a one way ticket to nowhere.They barely clear the shetlands now before needing fuel to go further up and then said tanker has to follow to ensure they get home .Close either or both the ones further up and they are mad maybe one goes but the other needs to expand to cope .

[Xplumberlives]

SIMPLE, CLOSE ALL the RAF bases within Jockland, they have their own Parliament, let them sort out some defence!

[Mags]

SIMPLE, CLOSE ALL the RAF bases within Jockland, they have their own Parliament, let them sort out some defence!

Aach cm'on XP ......... we'll just throw empty whiskey bottles at the enemy

Thumper - well done you for taking the time to put all that lot up here

I'd still put money on Lossie.........it's bigger and Moray has had a loss already - Kinloss. OK Guardbridge lost the papermill a while back (big loss to the community) but the area still has the golf and the uni.

Oh well - watch this space I guess

[Thumper]

Can anyone decipher from that lot when a decision is likely to be made?

[Sploosher]

[Rant mode on]

All this talk about having to cut costs within the forces by closing air bases down, scrapping aircraft that we cant afford(defensively) to scrap is just a load of b0110x..............

The PM and his cronies will do any thing to save the country money, as long as it does not hurt there precious back pocket

Instead of looking at cutting spending in other non essential places, they are leaving us out in the open to the glee of all those tinpot dictators out there who have a grudge against our (once fine?????) country.

STOP all overseas aid until our country is back on its feet, if it makes us look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world, who gives a damn, I for one certainly dont.

[/Rant mode off]

[Planetrace]

Xplumberlives wrote:
SIMPLE, CLOSE ALL the RAF bases within Jockland, they have their own Parliament, let them sort out some defence!


I have read all the threads on this subject and find some of them putting forward good arguments regarding this subject. One of my friends, who is very pedantic, was getting fed up with the term "Lossie" when it should be Lossiemouth, explaining that he also hates terms such as Spit and Hurri. I tried to excplain to him that he just has to accept this. However I did notice XP's remark and feel that I must make a comment. I come from Scotland, not Jockland and although I do not find this offensive I do not like the term Jockland or Jock, but usually accept that this is the way that some people talk. In saying that I know people who do find the term offensive and think that XP should be careful how he expresses himself in a PUBLIC forum. I take it that he was kidding but others wouldn't!

[Dan4th]

Dear Planetrace:::::::::::::::::::::::

I think Xplumber can be forgiven for his ironic comments
and his use of what is probably only a slightly derogatory
term for Scots. We do tend to be quite jocular* and informal
on here, and I know him well enough to not take his slings
and arrows to heart. Lord knows, as a Slimey Murkin, I have
been called FAR WORSE than that! (An American with Frasier
and Stuart ancestors, btw...)

Welcome to our humble "forum", while I'm at it, and please
feel free to cast buns at anyone you like as long as it's in
good humo(u)r!

All in the Name of FUN!

Dan4th

*Pun Intended

[Sploosher]

@Pkanetrace

I am of Scottish descent and it does not offend me in anyway to hear of Scotland being called jockland........

WHY?

Because I know that on these forums, a vast majority of the banter is meant in a humorous sort of way

All forum members know that if they post `offensive` comments, then they will be dealt with......

Its one of those things, and as for Spitfire being shortened to `Spit`, didnt pilots during the war call them that anyway

[Xplumberlives]

Xplumberlives wrote:
SIMPLE, CLOSE ALL the RAF bases within Jockland, they have their own Parliament, let them sort out some defence!


I have read all the threads on this subject and find some of them putting forward good arguments regarding this subject. One of my friends, who is very pedantic, was getting fed up with the term "Lossie" when it should be Lossiemouth, explaining that he also hates terms such as Spit and Hurri. I tried to excplain to him that he just has to accept this. However I did notice XP's remark and feel that I must make a comment. I come from Scotland, not Jockland and although I do not find this offensive I do not like the term Jockland or Jock, but usually accept that this is the way that some people talk. In saying that I know people who do find the term offensive and think that XP should be careful how he expresses himself in a PUBLIC forum. I take it that he was kidding but others wouldn't!

I bet you've been called worse as a race!

[Mags]

Can anyone decipher from that lot when a decision is likely to be made?

Just had my attention drawn to this again with the recent posts..............what I've read in the local press seems to suggest that no announcement will be made till after the Scottish elections - May sometime?? Wonder why.......................

Planetrace - don't worry about XP - he's OK (and I'm Scottish, or Jockish or something - where's me kilt!)

[Jigsaw]

Can anyone decipher from that lot when a decision is likely to be made?

Just had my attention drawn to this again with the recent posts..............what I've read in the local press seems to suggest that no announcement will be made till after the Scottish elections - May sometime?? Wonder why.......................

Planetrace - don't worry about XP - he's OK (and I'm Scottish, or Jockish or something - where's me kilt!)

Round yer ankles?

[Mags]

Jiggy I'll be borrowing Mayfly's thwacking stick