558's Future.

[Dan4th]

Mister E.......

If the above indicates you are headed elsewhere
for internet activities, I beg you reconsider.

If it instead means you are headed for some
tropic clime with swaying palm trees and fruity
liquid refreshments, may we at least receive a
postcard? Oh, and Bon Voyage, too!

But in any event, I do hope you do stick around
ultimately. I get tired of these whippersnappers
from time to time......

Mister D.

[Jigsaw]

Now if you will excuse me I'm off to sunnier places.

Lucky git

[Mackrick]

Knowing the engineers as I do they have said what needed to be said.

[Za150]

Oh dear.

Look il explain this as simply as possible shall i? Responsibility is different to fault.

If company X is tasked by TVOC to carry out whatever work was needed to sort the issue then it is the engineering director's responsibility to ensure that work is carried out, if company x fails to carry out that work then it is company X's fault. However As the engineering director is responsible for all things engineering (including the permit) then he is responsible.

maintaining goodwill to third parties was mentioned, well sorry but saying it wasn't our fault and pointing the finger at third parties will not go far in maintaining that goodwill, lets be honest here there isn't that hard to narrow down the guilty party is it? Top two choices are Marshalls or British Aerospace. Bet they are chuffed to bits.

You are quite correct in saying that the engineers (no matter who they are) have a right to reply. However the personal abuse that was spouted was out of line. Correct me if I'm wrong here but I'm sure that personal attacks are not allowed here and if you're trying to say they were on the end of some then you have clearly reading the wrong thread, the personal stuff started with the engineers, and the attitude showed was at best very poor, despite what you may think the staff at TVOC owe a great deal to those that have given so much over the years.

You may or may not agree with me and thats fine by me, but after 3 decades of running programs etc i feel fairly confident i know what I'm talking about.

Now if you will excuse me I'm off to sunnier places.

Whilest i do not by-large agree with what you say, there are a few points i wish to make.

The trust as a colective do owe a great deal to the public who have supported them, but each individual engineer does not owe the public everything, as they are just doing a job they are paid to do, and evry single one of them does far more than they should because they love what thay do. Dont get me wrong every single engineer is so greatful and humble for support the public gives the trust, esp those who give when they really cant afford to give.

While the posts on this thred by the engineers may to some people seem out of line(personally i dont think so) just look back at other threads over the last 6 six week, most people have spent that time ripping into the trust and finger pointing at individaul people. (The engineering director thread to point out one). The engineers have a great deal of respect for the people they work for and every time some takes a pop at the trust you are also taking a pop at them. Can you blame the engineers for getting annoyed after reading for 6 weeks personal attacks on there colleuges and having to read the incorrect facts that people keep posting and the posts were written by the engineers on the eve of them possiblly losing there jobs? The engineesr liad down some facts, yet people still dont seem to be happy.

I have the up most respect for the engineers coming out and supporting there colleuges were ever those peoples jobs are in the trust

While you may have had 30 years experience, as my boss once said to me. Experience doesn't meen your right.

Dan4th

I get tired of these whippersnappers
from time to time......

Thanks for that, it makes me feel so young!!

[Sooty655]

I agree with P.eames that what is being (deliberately?) mis-understood here is the difference between fault and responsibility.

[Coastergirl]

It beggars belief that all you people that have brains the size of Gas Planets seem to think that TVOC would happily fly to such a prestigious event, such as the RAF Waddington airshow, with a potential stopper in the closet.

(ignoring the cheap sarcastic jab about brain size)

So are you saying that they flew to the Waddington show unaware of the stopper? Please clarify, as briefly as possible so your answer does not get veiled with other information.

The day that we left Brize for Waddington, he was making entreaties to the relevant organisations seeking confirmation that the permit was in hand. Only after landing, did we receive a call, on Friday afternoon, saying that things had gone wrong at their end and the permit was not being renewed at that point in time.

Do you consider it 'good organisation' to still be chasing something so overwhelmingly crucial, on the day you fly to a show? Again, please keep your answer brief and relevant so I can find it.

Do you really think that we would have gone there if we, as the "front man", would expose ourselves to such vitriol that we had to endure from the public (and continue to do so) and the public thrashing that we have had to endure since? (We also knew well beforehand what needed to be done on 603, unfortunately, TVOC were not in a situation to carry out this work, due to a paucity of qualified Airframe Engineers at that time).

Again, do you consider it 'good organisation' that there was such a lack of qual Airframe Engineers when it had been clear from the previous year that they would be required?

With only 4 days to go until I, and the rest of the engineers, have to "sign on" I have really had enough of this cr@p and have decided to speak out, because this is just beyond reason, and my confidentiality clause is starting to look somewhat transparent. There are always 2 sides to every story but, without these Engineers (us) that are currently qualified by the CAA to work to an exacting standard, Bubbles & his wannabee mates can continue to polish panels on Teasin Tina and paint propellors on other grounded aircraft

And you accuse everyone else of speaking ill??

Oh by the Way Sooty655, it was refreshing to have you and your mates thank TVOC for giving you about a tons worth of Avionic spares to get 655 up to speed.............. oh, damn, I forget, ...... you didn't. But don't let that get in the way of you having yet another slap at us.

I feel like I'm reading a Hollyoaks script with a stroppy teenage girl flicking her hair and stomping off having delivered a line that is designed to offend with an instruction that is clearly the opposite of how you actually feel! If you genuinely believe that thanks had not been forthcoming, would it not have been more constructive to simply send Sooty a private message saying this? Why the need for the public mud-slinging?

I do agree that the engineers have done a really good job on '558 and the massive amount of praise you get on here and other fora is well-deserved, but I will not be intimidated in to thinking that you are a deity and that we are just low-lifes who are not entitled to an opinion (whether you agree with it or not), which is how your post came across to me. Your use of the phrase 'bubbles and his wannabee mates' implies that they want to be something that they aren't; I don't believe that is true at all. I know bubbles and gaz absolutely love what they do with the CWJ - and good luck to them; I know we all get a massive amount of enjoyment at the CWJ days.

CG

[Za150]

I agree with P.eames that what is being (deliberately?) mis-understood here is the difference between fault and responsibility.

Deliberately mis-understood, No.

I just dont thinks its down to one person, more the fact that a process failed rather than one mans actions.

[P.eames]

ZA150

I understand that the engineers may feel somewhat cheesed off, but at no point did the original poster mention the engineers nor did he have a go at them, and having read through this forum i see that prior to the last few days the original poster had not logged in since the 15th of December last year, quite considerably longer than 6 weeks wouldn't you say? as i said it may not be the engineering directors fault but as engineering director he carries responsibility those are two different things and unfortunately responsibility goes with the job. you are quite correct that 30 years experience doesn't mean I'm right all the time, but it does mean that I've been right often enough to be doing at it for 3 decades, to use words similar to Pat's there are those that know and there are those that don't know.

Once again you are correct in saying the engineers do a job they get paid for, but they get paid because Joe public sticks their hands in their pockets time after time. So sorry my friend the do owe them.

Engineers are held in some sort of reverence on here and i am struggling to understand why it is people are saying they were right to say what they did ? i'm not talking about correcting possible misconceptions but the abuse. Is it ok for the engineers to be abusive to people who have not in any shape or form said a bad word against them? is it one rule for one and another for others? Once again i find myself suggesting people go back and read this thread again, if you are still saying it is ok for for the original poster to receive abuse like he did then either you haven't read it properly with open eyes or your standards of acceptable behavior are questionable.

Mr Danforth..

I am off to sunnier climate....just as soon as i find one's car keys.

[Xplumberlives]

ZA150

I understand that the engineers may feel somewhat cheesed off, but at no point did the original poster mention the engineers nor did he have a go at them, and having read through this forum i see that prior to the last few days the original poster had not logged in since the 15th of December last year, quite considerably longer than 6 weeks wouldn't you say? as i said it may not be the engineering directors fault but as engineering director he carries responsibility those are two different things and unfortunately responsibility goes with the job. you are quite correct that 30 years experience doesn't mean I'm right all the time, but it does mean that I've been right often enough to be doing at it for 3 decades, to use words similar to Pat's there are those that know and there are those that don't know.

Once again you are correct in saying the engineers do a job they get paid for, but they get paid because Joe public sticks their hands in their pockets time after time. So sorry my friend the do owe them.

Engineers are held in some sort of reverence on here and i am struggling to understand why it is people are saying they were right to say what they did ? i'm not talking about correcting possible misconceptions but the abuse. Is it ok for the engineers to be abusive to people who have not in any shape or form said a bad word against them? is it one rule for one and another for others? Once again i find myself suggesting people go back and read this thread again, if you are still saying it is ok for for the original poster to receive abuse like he did then either you haven't read it properly with open eyes or your standards of acceptable behavior are questionable.

Mr Danforth..

I am off to sunnier climate....just as soon as i find one's car keys.

A commendable post Mr Eames, I wonder whether your point will be understood this time!

[Sooty655]

I agree with P.eames that what is being (deliberately?) mis-understood here is the difference between fault and responsibility.

Deliberately mis-understood, No.

I just dont thinks its down to one person, more the fact that a process failed rather than one mans actions.

Indeed, and the fact the process failed is probably the FAULT of many people.

But is no-one RESPONSIBLE for the process?

[Xplumberlives]

NO ONE must be responsible, but WHO is NO ONE?

[Za150]

I agree with P.eames that what is being (deliberately?) mis-understood here is the difference between fault and responsibility.

Deliberately mis-understood, No.

I just dont thinks its down to one person, more the fact that a process failed rather than one mans actions.

Indeed, and the fact the process failed is probably the FAULT of many people.

But is no-one RESPONSIBLE for the process?

Many people maybe involed in drawing up a process, so one person maybe soley responsible. I dont know what the case is within TVOC, therefore im not going to point the finger at anyone. it maybe easily to blame someone, but can you say with fact that its someones fault and/or responsible without knowing the all the facts?

A commendable post Mr Eames, I wonder whether your point will be understood this time!

His points were understood, just because i choose to disagree with him doesnt mean i dont understand. Im sure you have taken the time to read my comments, but you dont agree with me and thats whats this is about, peoples opinion! im NOT asking people to take what a say and believe it.

ZA150

I understand that the engineers may feel somewhat cheesed off, but at no point did the original poster mention the engineers nor did he have a go at them, and having read through this forum i see that prior to the last few days the original poster had not logged in since the 15th of December last year, quite considerably longer than 6 weeks wouldn't you say?

Once again you are correct in saying the engineers do a job they get paid for, but they get paid because Joe public sticks their hands in their pockets time after time. So sorry my friend the do owe them.

Engineers are held in some sort of reverence on here and i am struggling to understand why it is people are saying they were right to say what they did ? i'm not talking about correcting possible misconceptions but the abuse. Is it ok for the engineers to be abusive to people who have not in any shape or form said a bad word against them? is it one rule for one and another for others? Once again i find myself suggesting people go back and read this thread again, if you are still saying it is ok for for the original poster to receive abuse like he did then either you haven't read it properly with open eyes or your standards of acceptable behavior are questionable.

The 6 weeks i was refering to was the last 6 weeks in which most of the forum had been ripping into the trust in many threds, i wasnt refering to just one person.

Im sorry but the engineers do not owe you anything. People donate because they want to see 558 fly, not because they want to see an individaul person doing the job. They are greatful for the support they and the trust get from the public. As i said the trust as a collective do owe everybody but individauls i believe dont.

I hold the enginners in the highest regard as they go above and beyond what there paid to do, including taking up every sunday which they dont get paid for to open up the Vulcan so the public can see her. plus much more.


I have read and re read this thred (with my eyes open for your information ) and maybe the posts seem rude, but after weeks of abuse towards the trust the enginners have come out stood up for what they believe, and good on them i say.

We are going to have to agree to disagree Mr Eames (and everbody else that thinks im an ass) I dont what to get into a slagging match with you or anyone. I write what i belive in and sometimes it comes out wrong. I understand were you are coming from and i have taken time to read your posts and while i understand, i dont agree. Im sure you think what i write is a load of Boll**ks but i would like to think you have taken the time to understand my points even if you dont agree with them.

[Gully]

Maybe the difference between Responsibility and Accountability should be introduced at this point? One can delegate responsibility, but not accountability. Hence, whilst the permit was a 3rd party responsibility, accountability for it lay with VTTS. Given that we've been told on several occasions from well-placed sources that VTTS could have done no more in respect of this issue (inc. the CAA), the accusations of negligence are misplaced, blame is immaterial and this fiasco should be seen as a lesson for the future (particularly in communication).

Gully

[Checkflaps]

Maybe the difference between Responsibility and Accountability should be introduced at this point? One can delegate responsibility, but not accountability. Hence, whilst the permit was a 3rd party responsibility, accountability for it lay with VTTS. Given that we've been told on several occasions from well-placed sources that VTTS could have done no more in respect of this issue (inc. the CAA), the accusations of negligence are misplaced, blame is immaterial and this fiasco should be seen as a lesson for the future (particularly in communication).

Gully

Agree. 100%.

If any action was to have been taken against people for the Waddo saga, it should have been done at the time. Doing it now would be of no benefit to anyone. So, onwards to the 2010 season with (I will assume), the same team as 2009 working to keep XH558 in the sky.

G

[P.eames]

ZA150

As i explained to you the original poster was the one that the abuse was aimed at, he has not been on this forum prior to Tuesday since the 15th of December, he has not taken part in any discussions on this forum.

Are you seriously telling me that the abuse toward him is acceptable? If you are going to let ripp at people for giving you stick then at least have the maturity to aim it those that are dishing it out, sorry my friend but the excuse that they have taken stick for 6 weeks does not excuse that behavior, we are talking about mature grown men acting like spoiled petulant children dishing out petulant abuse to a person who has been in no way involved in any of the things that have been going on for the last 6 weeks! I would not accept that behavior from my children or grand children so i sure as hell would not accept it from adults!

The posts did not "seem" rude, they went past rude.

[Za150]

ZA150

As i explained to you the original poster was the one that the abuse was aimed at, he has not been on this forum prior to Tuesday since the 15th of December, he has not taken part in any discussions on this forum.

Are you seriously telling me that the abuse toward him is acceptable? If you are going to let ripp at people for giving you stick then at least have the maturity to aim it those that are dishing it out, sorry my friend but the excuse that they have taken stick for 6 weeks does not excuse that behavior, we are talking about mature grown men acting like spoiled petulant children dishing out petulant abuse to a person who has been in no way involved in any of the things that have been going on for the last 6 weeks! I would not accept that behavior from my children or grand children so i sure as hell would not accept it from adults!

The posts did not "seem" rude, they went past rude.

As i said in my last post, we will have to disagree on this matter. Im not going to turn this thred into a slagging match between us because of our different veiws. No matter what a write on here, your going to tell me im wrong. Difference of opinion im great with, but to be told im wrong is a another. Thats how i read your posts towards me, if this is not the case, i stand correctted. At the end of day, all i write is my opinion. I take the time each time to carefully reads peoples post including yours and reply with my opinion. I have trouble putting things down in words and sometimes my replys may get lost in context, for that im turly sorry. If you dont like what i say, thats great, i vaule your opinion, wether i agree or not, but i dont like being shouted down and told im wrong.

Its not the first time ive been shouted down on this forum seemingly because I support what the trust do. Yes they have made mistakes, but hasn't everyone?i know i have.

[Xplumberlives]

I think it is extremely simple, Oberon was wrong to have a go at Bubbles like he did!

[Crew chief]

Well i for one am VERY pi$$ed off and VERY bored of this mud slinging farce.
END IT NOW.


cc.

[Jigsaw]

Gotta admit, I am getting kind of dizzy

[Gaz]

I know bubbles and gaz absolutely love what they do with the CWJ - and good luck to them; I know we all get a massive amount of enjoyment at the CWJ days.

CG

Love you Rach!

[Jigsaw]

I know bubbles and gaz absolutely love what they do with the CWJ - and good luck to them; I know we all get a massive amount of enjoyment at the CWJ days.

CG

Love you Rach!

Oh yeah, that's right, rub it in Rach I would love to help and share the love

[Nickolas]

Well i for one am VERY pi$$ed off and VERY bored of this mud slinging farce.
END IT NOW.


cc.

I'll definitely drink to that.

ENOUGH.

[Coastergirl]

Well i for one am VERY pi$$ed off and VERY bored of this mud slinging farce.

Then perhaps you should stop reading it?

END IT NOW.

cc.

Who died and put you in charge?? How dare you tell me what to do...

To those who know me, that is perhaps a very uncharacteristic line for me to utter, but that is how I feel when instructions are SHOUTED at me by someone who has no authority to do so. I'm sorry if this discussion has bored you but no-one has forced you to read it; if I don't like something on the television I simply turn over, the same applies to reading fora.

Free speech is just that: 'free' - so of course you are entitled to post your opinion that you are bored of the conversation, and think it is rubbish/unhelpful/unwarranted or whatever. However, 'free speech' is not, in my opinion, the same as ordering and commanding people to fall in with what you consider correct.

Regards
CG

[Wedgy]

Interesting how this thread progresses - some have dug themselves some very big holes and they provided their own shovel

[Jigsaw]

To those who know me, that is perhaps a very uncharacteristic line for me to utter

I would have said Extremely uncharacteristic (if I was sober, it's hard enough typing it in my state ) and I know you far less well than some.

That is how this sort of thing gets out of hand I suppose. Maybe I should not make light of such things but the other option of letting them wind me up is worse. My statement regarding dizzy was made out of humour (I know I have a weird sense of it).

People will think what they think, react because they disagree, whatever. Some are better at expressing themselves than others.
Others may not see any harm in what they posted and be qenuinely shocked by the response. It is an impossible situation and that is why I keep my views to myself (I never could share).

This thread will die a death at the right time.
I will read it and keep my thoughts to myself whilst others don't.

Thats Fora