What happened to XM?

[MrTim]

Wonder why Paul has left the VTTSC (again). Well, I can probably guess. Denis has now be left with the maintenance of the whole website.

[Wedgy]

As a fairly newbie to those forums, it doesnt sound good from where I sit - would I be right?

Also, Denis' post about RULES and BEHAVING seems a little OTT (as its always been). What I cannot get my head around is that those forums are private, where users have to pay a membership to gain access. Its not open to any lesser-spotted teenager who happened to stumble accross the forums in google .... so why so may RULES and so much CENSORSHIP???? Why not trust those who have paid for the privelige for the forums, with being adult enough to conduct themselves in an adult way???

Or is it just me?

[MrTim]

The forms were made private because of spam. Wasn't a very popular decision at the time, but since Paul wasn't being paid to manage it he probably had enough of sorting out the mess.

I can't specifically remember Denis' post (I vaguely can), though in general the censorship of many posts and threads was very irritating. Some of the 'official' responses people have got back for perfectly reasonable posts and suggestions have been downright rude and uncalled for. I've certainly had a few.

I think Paul's main gripe - from what he told me once - was with Dr P. I reckon it was Paul B who talked him back the first time, but he's just had enough again.

[Cluny]

I find it funny that the person who on numorous occaisions has stated publicly that he doesn't think there should be a forum is now in charge of it
The end is nigh people

[Saracenman]

it's a great shame that XM decided to finally walk away from the forum - not just because he administered it, but because (as a Club Committee member) he was more than aware that the Club members were very much short-changed. he regularly used to send me PMs giving me the heads-up on certain things that were just around the corner, and also his personal thoughts on the 'management' actions. he had already resigned from the Committee at least once before and was encouraged to rethink by several people, including me.

as far as the reason for the 'private' nature of the current forum is concerned - well, the spam reason is something of an excuse actually. I'm not sure how many of you were around at the time of the change over from public to private, but it occurred very shortly after the 'Forum Invasion Day' in January 2008. XM started a new thread telling us to keep an eye on the news topics as an important announcement was imminent; sure enough, only a few HOURS later, we were told that the old forum was to close and the new club members-only forum would take its place. the actual change happened on the same day as the announcement!

the new (current) forum was clearly still very much under construction, with very little of the current format in place - in fact, it was difficult to do anything much on there until XM had actually built it! the reason given at the time was that it seemed like a good idea at the time to encourage all forumeers to become fully paid-up club members, as only a very small percentage were at the time. what ISN'T widely known is that just before the change-over, TVOC had lost their engineering authority to work on the aeroplane itself, and that MA had actually put 558 under a 'lock-down' - there was a school visit to the hangar (on a Wednesday I think) and later the same day, I understand that MA actually put seals on all access points of 558, until the difficulties were sorted out.

whilst I have no reason to suspect that the 'make forum members pay club membership' was something that WASN'T already in the pipeline, I remain convinced that it was brought forward for a very specific reason; there was at least one ex-TVOC engineer who was very vocal about TVOC's political troubles, the management issues, and the MA lock-down in particular. TVOC were determined to keep the lock-down secret, and it's interesting to note that, when the new forum started, two ex-engineers were denied access to it! I remember clearly at the time that we forum members called for ALL such ex-employees to be given honorary Club membership, giving them access to the forum so that they could continue their fascinating stream of regular engineering information that was greatly appreciated on the old public forum. one such ex-engineer was indeed given access, but another wasn't - the MOST vocal one!

it was at that point that another forumeer actually gave him access via his own Club membership number, only to find that he himself was then removed from the forum and had to appeal to have himself reinstated! ever since, he has considered himself very much on TVOC's 'blacklist' and knows that he has been referred to as "one of the troublemakers"!

ultimately (obviously) the political differences were dealt with and 558 restarted her TF programme. what DIDN'T change however was the management's attitude towards the forum. I know that XM was absolutely FUMING (not quite as strong as the words he used!) when, after the near collapse of the project in Feb/March 2008, we the forumeers were SOLELY responsible for an enormous publicity campaign, resulting in raising the required money in less than 3 weeks - Dr Pleming decided to announce the fundraising success, not to us, but to a symposium elsewhere where he was a speaker. his words were reported on another forum, and when they were copied and pasted onto our own, XM took it upon himself to post the news on the website homepage WITHOUT prior authority from TVOC management! he was absolutely appalled that the very people who'd stood by 558 and worked incredibly hard to save the management's skin were overlooked in such a manner - and never once actually THANKED for what we had achieved. XM said tome at the time that Dr Pleming's actions were "the final straw" and that he would resign immediately as he could no longer lend his support to such a bunch of ****s!

it remains a mystery to me why TVOC management continue to see the club/forum as a millstone around their neck - we are the ONLY regular and dedicated source of funding for them. they have continually deceived us about several matters over many many months - we have to beg, jump up and down, scream and shout to get ANY info or news from them, and yet this has always been perceived as 'moaning' and troublesome. the only exception to this normality is when they run out of money, at which point the very first people they come to is us!

Denis Parker has been very much against the forum for a long time now. I have seen various emails/messages from him stating how much he regrets the forum not being axed long ago. I personally think that Rusty regularly abused her position as a forum moderator, by deleting posts and threads that SHE didn't like - some of those were my own, where I stated some fact or other which disagreed with her own opinion. sadly she never credited me with the (limited ) intelligence with which I was born! she clearly has NO idea that I keep EVERY email both received and sent and as such was only too happy to post information which I could PROVE was fact. I know that Denis was always only one pace behind her all the times and, unfortunately, I genuinely believe that Denis will merely be 'Rusty by Proxy' after she retires!

I haven't read Denis' post about his forum administration yet, but if these rigid rules are as you say they are then GOOD!!!! I've never broken any of them in the past and I'll continue to impart information that I can PROVE to be correct, whether Denis likes it or not!

I really fear for the future of the TVOC forum, merely because of who is in charge of it. it WILL be a sad day if/when it closes, merely because it will simply be TVOC management shooting themselves in the foot with the World's biggest gun!

sm

[IanM]

Now I gathered from your posts before that you knew something others didn't so why didn't you just say something!

Being as it was of significant importance but you still kept quiet. You've always said you want honesty but that does work both ways.

I've always kept an open mind about things and have never felt part of the different groups on the TVOC forum. It has been so difficult and frustrating knowing that one side knows one thing and the other side knows something else but they both won't say anything. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that. Just because myself, and others like me, are not friends with pilots, engineers, management or such like doesn't mean we're stupid!

I'm now going away to think whether I actually want to have anything to do with any of it, and that includes this forum!

Frustrated of Essex!

[Wedgy]

Now I gathered from your posts before that you knew something others didn't so why didn't you just say something!

By the sounds of it, the post wouldnt have lasted long enough to be read by anyone

I've always kept an open mind about things and have never felt part of the different groups on the TVOC forum. It has been so difficult and frustrating knowing that one side knows one thing and the other side knows something else but they both won't say anything. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that. Just because myself, and others like me, are not friends with pilots, engineers, management or such like doesn't mean we're stupid!

I think thats the key word there, Im not sure its won't but more rather can't . SM doesnt need me defending him, but as a newbie Ive already heard the stories of information being put on the forum without prior TVOC approval and wrists being publicly and wrongly slapped. Not an environment that promotes information sharing in any situation

[IanM]

Now I gathered from your posts before that you knew something others didn't so why didn't you just say something!

By the sounds of it, the post wouldnt have lasted long enough to be read by anyone

I understand that. Sorry about my rant, I read SM's post and went

Had a cup of tea and have now chilled

[Wedgy]

Is that the effect of loving XH558 and being a club member for more than two months? Im doomed!

[IanM]

Is that the effect of loving XH558 and being a club member for more than two months? Im doomed!

Indeedy

[Saracenman]

IanM, I agree with you 100%

however, I hope that you appreciate and respect the fact that there are MANY things that I (and others) could've said publicly, but doing so would've betrayed trust and confidence. also, with any such 'heavy' information there is one important factor to consider - what actual constructive purpose would it perfom? I'm certain that, at a time when we needed as many supporters and donors as possible, such information would've cause many to turn and run! hardly constructive!

the one thing I have always realised is that it would be quite wrong to try and tell people what to think. however, crediting people with their own intelligence, and seeing just how so many dedicated club members, supporters and donors were constantly being told many things which I KNEW were utter bollocks, and all the while being encouraged to dig deep to fund the thing - well that's something that seriously pisses me off!

what I COULD do however was to try and give people enough information (without betraying trust or causing a counter-productive mutiny) for them to sit back and think for themselves. the old adage "you can lead a horse to water..." springs to mind here!

quite a few of us began to feel that 'something wasn't quite right' on the day after First Flight, and ever since, the information and facts have been there for all to see - as long as they chose to look. a CLASSIC example of this was with Andrew Edmondson's presentation he gave at the AGM in May. bizarrely as it turned out, at the VERY MOMENT that AE was uttering the words "and as of Friday we have a fully serviceable Vulcan..." it transpires that I was talking with someone on the 'phone who said completely the opposite! I INSTANTLY knew which one I believed!

now I could've gone straight on to the forum and said "well, I was speaking to ********* earlier and they said...." - no,that would've been quite wrong! what I DID do however was to transcribe AE's words and post them - simply to remind everyone of what they'd been told - in the knowledge that within a few days, AE would be proven wrong and deceptive.

I appreciate that, had AE's words been used in a different environment - speaking to prospective sponsors for example, AE would've been quite correct in putting a 'positive spin' on things - or if he'd used the words as an answer to a direct question from the floor at the AGM. unfortunately this was NOT the case - AE said what he said, unprompted, to the very people that pay his salary! in one way it might be only a minor point in isolation, but souldn't it paint a bigger picture? if he was happy to say such a thing to us when HE knew it was untrue, what else has he said that isn't?

what I hoped would be the result of posting a transcript of his words, was that when people learned the truth, they might just sit back and say to themselves "hmmmm - that's not what AE told us the other day..." much of what TVOC say and do IS questionable and they ARE accountable to us - we are the ones that fund them!

that's certainly wyat i tend to do. something smells a bit fishy, i then delve a little deeper, get views and facts from others who i trust, and THEN make my own mind up.

I know that I have been perceived as a troublemaker on TVOC forum- it really doesn't faze me one bit - if by my words, I can help just one person question TVOC and make a balanced and informed judgment FOR THEMSELVES - good, it's been worth it!

on more than one occasion Rusty has threatened me with legal action - my response? "good! see you in court!" Rusty has NO comprehension just what information I have, and as long as 'they' are asking for us to continually fund them, I have no problem imparting as much as I possibly can to those very people who are donating vast quantities of money - very often money that they can ill-afford!

yes, i HAVE called Rusty a "liar" on more than one occasion. for anyone to think that i don't understand the gravity of the word, or what libel and slander are - well i do, and i would only use a word like "liar" if i KNEW that i had the proof to back it up - which i did and still do!

sm

[Prometheus]

I've always kept an open mind about things and have never felt part of the different groups on the TVOC forum. It has been so difficult and frustrating knowing that one side knows one thing and the other side knows something else but they both won't say anything. I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking that. Just because myself, and others like me, are not friends with pilots, engineers, management or such like doesn't mean we're stupid!

Im glad it's not just me that feels that way, cliques springs to mind and I've noticed there's a few of them on the TVOC forum.

SM, I must admit that at the start when I first joined the TVOC forum I thought you were one of the forum trouble makers but after a while I realised that what you were saying made sense. I could never understand and still don't understand why the VOC are so tight lipped about the goings on i.e. a/c movements, engineering issues, sponsorship issues etc.

Something that always shows itself is their need for the forum members to bail them out and come up with ideas of how they can raise much needed money. It's a very one sided relationship in that they are more than happy for the members to bail them out but they rarely give up any information, 'carrot' and 'donkey' springs to mind.

[RLN]

I went to TVOC as an innocent and with 8 months experience of the forum I find I'm tired of the same old, same old. When I had my "excursion" a couple of months ago, I had a long chat with SM and he opened my eyes. I will never trust any official info from TVOC. You are quite right, SM, to have posted what you had been told in confidence would have been intolerable.
Please everyone. This isn't an extension of 558s forum, please treat it as such.

[MrTim]

I see Rusty's spin on Paul's departure is somewhat different to Denis's. Resigned or busy??? Same old, same old...

[Saracenman]

funny you know, i've had this conversation about the TVOC forum 'clique' issue.

personally i don't see it at all - well other than in the sense of normal human behaviour anyway!

wasn't it the case at school that there were various groups/gangs/packs etc? and the same is true in adult life too - everywhere you look - in the workplace, the pub etc. at parties, isn't there always the group who stay in the kitchen?

it's innevitable that something like an interweb forum will have the same 'groups' - i see nothing wrong with that at all - in fact i'd be very surprised if it was NOT the case. with something like 558 though, where we are ALL very passionate and there's regularly a feeling of secrecy and mis-information etc, i can fully understand why it SEEMS as if it's cliquey.

what i DO like about the TVOC forum is the obvious 'family' feel that it has about it; i can't think of any other similar 'place' where we can all have some good old fashioned banter in the way that we do. certainly some very genuine friendships have been forged because of our shared passion. if those particular groups happen to share certain information, because one of them happens towork at wherever, or because they happen to know whoever, then it's fine by me.

i do't see anything particularly cliquey about that - it's just the way things are!

sm

[Saracenman]

I see Rusty's spin on Paul's departure is somewhat different to Denis's. Resigned or busy??? Same old, same old...

well there we are you see - i had a conversation with XM the other day - he told me EXACTLY why he chose to go and, whilst he didn't expressly say that it was in confidence, i KNOW that it was not the sort of thing that i should or would voice myself.

what good would it do anyway? what is very often MORE effective is to ASK publicly - it's no statement in itself, but will certainly make a lot of people THINK FOR THEMSELVES!!!

i had a fantastic teacher at school - Mr. Griffin - he was forever telling us to "always ask WHY!"

but as i've hinted at knowing what's behind XM's departure it wouldn't be fair to leave it like that. suffice to say, he has finally got sick and tired of TVOC and all the nonsense that goes with it!

sm

[Cluny]

I take it Pauls the mysterious XH558 ?

[Mayfly]

I would assume so seeing the date XH558 jioned

[MrTim]

To be honest, I'm tired of asking and suggesting on there now. I never get any answers or I just get fobbed off or effectively told to mind my own business. Despite the success of the e-petition and EDM in March I was asked to 'not interfere' with such matters (actually it was a lot worse, but I'll withhold the full details because it won't do anyone any good). Needless to say, I didn't take it lying down. I've not let any personal disagreements dampen my enthusiasm for 558 though, and I've started to take matters into my own hands (much as you have, Wedgy)...

[Cluny]

Nice website Tim

[RLN]

Nice one Tim

[MrTim]

Cheers guys. It's a start at least It was really born out of the frustration that your general passer-by to the VTST website would find it very difficult to find out how to 'get involved'. I've still got a lot more to do with it, but I consider it good enough to go as it is now. If you have any good content that could be added, let me know.

I've also got a Google gadget (random pic and message type thing) and Google 'theme' in the making, so watch out. I may need to speak to you, Pam, about copyright for a certain image that I might use, as I know you know Charles.

I'll probably get told to 'not interfere' by certain persons, but 8*!!*(&$ to 'em!

[Saracenman]

..................I've started to take matters into my own hands...

funny that - i found that i had to do much the same at the end of last year!

it's the only way i'm afraid - it would seem (and this is only my opinion) that if it's not Rusty's idea then it won't happen!

you mention the EDM. i have to say, i don't know how you managed it, but that was an utter master-stroke

i know it was at the same time as the mass emailing of XM's database - that 3 or 4 week perios was the most lucrative in terms of club membership - we DOUBLED our member numbers in 3 weeks, something that has never happened before or since.

sadly, there are many tales of ideas put forward to TVOC management which never got anywhere. virtually everyone i speak to has the same view on this - it's Rusty! the sooner she goes the better in my opinion - sure she's put an awful lot into TVOC, and i would never overlook her dedication - BUT i firmly believe that 558 has outgrown the management team.

over the last 12-14 months, 558 has been kept 'ticking over' by dedicated souls on the sidelines doing amazing things to keep it all going. one trustee even said to me "if you can't work with them you'll have to either work around them or over them"

says it all really!

sm
(edit: yeah, cracking website Mr Tim - Wedgy, can we add that to the links please?)

[Wedgy]

.... and I've started to take matters into my own hands (much as you have, Wedgy)...

I noticed your site in your signature when you joined this forum mate, much impressed. Which reminds me ....

Tell you what, provide me with a banner (or URL to one) no bigger than 900x80 and I will make it a permanent link to your site at the bottom of these forums. I was contemplating adding a TVOC one, but would prefer to link to a site with passion rather than a "corporation". Yours is perfect

[Mayfly]

Cheers guys. It's a start at least It was really born out of the frustration that your general passer-by to the VTST website would find it very difficult to find out how to 'get involved'. I've still got a lot more to do with it, but I consider it good enough to go as it is now. If you have any good content that could be added, let me know.

I've also got a Google gadget (random pic and message type thing) and Google 'theme' in the making, so watch out. I may need to speak to you, Pam, about copyright for a certain image that I might use, as I know you know Charles.

I'll probably get told to 'not interfere' by certain persons, but 8*!!*(&$ to 'em!

no problem Mr Tim let me know which image ou would like to use & I'll ask Charles for you