Iconic Aircraft Aviation Forum

by **Spitfire** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:48 am

Just for Wedgy - Lets try and discuss my passion then .... opinion, reflection and ideas.

Now you all know my ideas on art - controversial - but MY ideas .... so it wont surprise you that those opinions stray into appreciation of Marks of Spitfire ... to me the Spitfire shape in form and elegance is a total masterpiece of the designers art...... Mitchell was a genius ......

I know all the stories about the Hurricane being the work horse - and it shot down more planes - and I know that Douglas Bader himself considered the Hurricane a better gun platform having its Brownings closer together not spread like in a Spitfire's wing - but just look at that shape - elegance - beauty - ability - fit for purpose .... all in one design :ymapplause:

It also has the remarkable pedigree of marks that saw it double in speed - develop and change - improve and stay one step ahead but all the time retaining its overall shape and design.

BUT - and here's the controversy - I hate the extended pointed wing tips of the high level marks - I hate the clipped wings of the low level marks - I hate the bubble canopies of the later marks with the reduced rear fuselage shape - and I don't like pointed fins

I just love the original design shape - to me the Mark VB [eliptical wing] (above)...

and the Mark IX

are just brilliant

And the sound of a Merlin on full chat

I was at Duxford when they got 21 in the air for Bader's Big Wing - my how I cried that day ... they came by in 4s and 3s - just wave after wave at low level .... brilliant B-)

I've never ever touched a Spitfire let alone sat in one.... and - it would be the joy of my life to just sit in one :ymdaydream:

So what do you say about this brilliant aircraft ...... pics - stories - ideas - opinions - anything

Oh and I'm going to get all TVOC about this thread - JUST Spitfires - NO OT - NO Hurricanes - Its

THE SPITFIRE

by **Saracenman** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:17 am

I've always loved them - they look right and sound right to an erk like me stood on the ground :ymapplause:

as for the Hurricane being the workhorse - well yes, numerically! but the Spit was the only fighter to be designed before the war, and be in production throughout the war - something that the Hurri never achieved.

as for the clipped vs. standard wing debate - well, you've gotta LOVE the original really. obviously as the requirements changed, so the design had to too - the Spits coming off the production lines after the war were very different machines to that which RJ originally envisaged.

even so, if you follow RJ's designs that led TO the Spit - Schneider Trophy etc - he was ALWAYS looking for the next thing to give him more speed, more height, more performance etc - had he not died so prematurely, i have no doubt that he himself would've clipped the wings, fitted the Griffon, given the Spit the ugly bubble canopy.

like them or not, they were all improvements that enabled Spits to perform almost any function that was asked of them.

in my opinion, and i KNOW that many share it with me, we British - and arguably a large slice of modern Europe - owes a tremendous amount to RJ.

I've often wondered just what RJ might've dreamt up next, had he survived - he would certainly have embraced the jet engine whole-heartedly I'm sure. if only....

sm

by **Xplumberlives** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:42 am

Well of course the easy answer is IF IT LOOKS RIGHT IT IS!

I think all of the Spitfires look wonderful, I accept some of S.M.s points re wingtips and canopys, but that ELIPTACLE wing shape is absolutely timeless and faultless. Let's hope we are lucky enough to see them flying for many years to come. :ymapplause:

by **RLN** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:54 am

It is one of the most beautiful machines ever built. The increase in power and performance it withstood shows Mitchell's design was a stroke of genius. The alterations to the wings, canopy etc. were made for good reasons, but the original shape with the Merlin is so iconic that it will always be the one that people love and remember.

by **Hihonyr8811** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:25 am

I like clipped winged spits

*Ducks for cover*

MK356 Is my favorite spitfire (which I havn't got any good pics of flying in her silver livery), closely followed by P7350 (thought I had a pic of her flying, but I guess not lol)

and
MH434

One of the most photogenic aircraft ever lol I always seem to get nicer pics of her than anything else.

by **Wedgy** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:13 am

.. and the pics come flooding in :ymapplause:

Looking through the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire#Survivors 2 things strike me.

1) There are approximately 44 Spitfires and a few Seafires airworthy worldwide, although many air museums have examples on static display :-o

2) 33 countries have used them in one way or another :-o

That is just astounding! Really shows the greatness of the Spitfire!

MH434 in the markings of 222 Squadron., Duxford, 2005.

The one and only airfix kit I saw through to the finish was Spitfire MkIa 1:24 (A12001)

Its £43 now!! Damn, where is it?

by **Coastergirl** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:14 am

I'm not a fan of propellor aircraft in general, although obviously I appreciate the role each has played in the history of our country (and the world actually).... the Spitfire is probably my favourite of that sort of aircraft though.

I concede it has a graceful, elegant design that can't really offend but at the same time it just doesn't 'do' anything for me. It seems to just sit there, like a duck on water; it looks like a toy model to me! My Dad loves them and would easily cite it as his most beloved aircraft of all time, but for me - I'm bored after a two minute display from a Spitfire or after 20 seconds of looking at a painting of one.

The only time I feel any surge of excitement for them is when there are lots and lots of them; Helen's photo above showing a formation of them was much more interesting than any of the single photos I've seen. I suspect that is more to do with it being a rarer sight than anything else.

So in summary, sorry David, I just don't get it!

by **Hihonyr8811** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:25 am

Rach i'm so with you on this

Although I can't say I'd be bored during a display

I like certain spits, but if I was to list my favorite aircraft the spit probably wouldn't make my top ten. Hmmm do we have a top ten thread? :))

They are beautiful, but I too prefer to see them in formation with something, like other spits, the BBMF formation, with the Typhoon or a mock dog fight like I saw at EK last year, now that was good!!
Probably why I like the unusual clipped winged one, as they're diferent.

Maybe coming from bomber county I just like bigger things

by **Xplumberlives** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:10 pm

Only the female of the species could say such hurtful things about an ICON! :-o

by **IanM** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:45 pm

List of airworthy Spitfires

http://www.military-airshows.co.uk/spitaw.htm

by **Hihonyr8811** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:26 pm

Xplumberlives wrote:[-x Only the female of the species could say such hurtful things about an ICON!

I like the spitfire

and it is an icon, I just like others better

by **Xplumberlives** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:28 pm

Hihonyr8811 wrote:
Xplumberlives wrote:[-x Only the female of the species could say such hurtful things about an ICON!

I like the spitfire and it is an icon, I just like others better

I like all women, some much more than others =))

by **Spitfire** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:32 pm

Xplumberlives wrote:[-x Only the female of the species could say such hurtful things about an ICON!

Now now - as we have learned in the Art thread it's all a matter of personal opinion - the fact that they are wrong is immaterial =))

Anyway - my own rules - back on topic

Wedgy wrote:.. and the pics come flooding in

Looking through the Wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire#Survivors 2 things strike me.

1) There are approximately 44 Spitfires and a few Seafires airworthy worldwide, although many air museums have examples on static display
2) 33 countries have used them in one way or another

That is just astounding! Really shows the greatness of the Spitfire!

MH434 in the markings of 222 Squadron., Duxford, 2005.

The one and only airfix kit I saw through to the finish was Spitfire MkIa 1:24 (A12001)

Its £43 now!! Damn, where is it?

Just as a point of reference ... This site shows a lot more than 44 .....
According to this http://www.military-airshows.co.uk/spitaw.htm there are 18 single seat and 6 x 2 seat Spits in this country and 33 single seat and 2 x 2 seat elsewhere - that makes 59 in total with otherts on the way.
That means that at Duxford I saw 21 of the 24 airworthy UK Spits in the same piece of sky -

That Airfix 1:24th scale kit I have built 3 times and I'm currently trying to build another with a few modifications - it's a good kit - but the one I really want is the Trumpeter VB.......
http://www.rollmodels.net/nreviews/airplanes/24hobbycraftspitfire/spitfire.php
which is now very hard to come by - been trying for ages

I can appreciate all of the views expressed above and of course I can see the developmental needs of the clipped and pointed wings and the Griffon modifications - and yes the overall lines remained pretty much the same - its just that my puritanical mind only likes the shape and aesthetics of the original shape as envisaged by Mitchell. As has been rightly pointed out if Mitchell had lived he would have probably redesigned it himself over the war years in the pursuit of speed and ability to do a given job and it may have changed in shape even more radically.

Rackel I can see your point too - I suppose if it doesn't float your boat then it doesn't - I have just been smitten from the age of 8 when I built my first ever 1/72nd Spitfire kit (in a plastic bag then - no boxes!) I just love the shapes and form and it just makes my hair stand up on my neck when I see one - I also agree with the idea of lots together - having seen the 21 roaring by in 4s and 3s I was in pure ecstasy.......

I can't get enough of the shape though .......

And I love ML407 - I have to swallow hard to accept invasion stripes - but I can - just

I think the way the second canopy has been added here in what has become known as the Grace Canopy conversion is brilliant - especially with that perspex joining canopy.

The second cockpit of this aircraft has been lowered and is now below the front cockpit. This modification is known as the Grace Canopy Conversion, and was designed by Nick Grace, who rebuilt ML407

Then there's this lovely image by Barrie Clark... this is so evocative .....

by **Xplumberlives** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:37 pm

I never went off topic, oh and that last picture is rather over produced, it's everywhere! How can you like the four bladed proppellers, three is much nicer! All just personal opinion though! =))

by **Spitfire** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:53 pm

Xplumberlives wrote:I never went off topic, oh and that last picture is rather over produced, it's everywhere! How can you like the four bladed proppellers, three is much nicer! All just personal opinion though!

Ok - I'll give you that ... I will tolerate 4 blades - but I don't really like 5s and contras

Yes the Barrie Clark is over produced - but it is good IMHO

Here's a good Robert Taylor 3 blader down in my neck of the woods - over St Michael's Mount

Here's another good one

by **Tom.com** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:54 pm

Wedgy wrote:The one and only airfix kit I saw through to the finish was Spitfire MkIa 1:24 (A12001)

Its £43 now!! Damn, where is it?

you have only done one!!!!

I've done loads and I got the 90 years of the RAF one for christmas.

anyway here are some pics of mine

taken at duxford on a model day.

by **Spitfire** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:10 pm

Nice pics of ML407 Tom :ymapplause:

Presumably you havn't 'done loads' of the 1/24th scale Airfix kit - you mean more of the smaller scales?

by **Tom.com** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:12 pm

well yh

by **RLN** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:17 pm

Hihonyr8811 wrote:Rach i'm so with you on this
Although I can't say I'd be bored during a display

I like certain spits, but if I was to list my favorite aircraft the spit probably wouldn't make my top ten. Hmmm do we have a top ten thread?

They are beautiful, but I too prefer to see them in formation with something, like other spits, the BBMF formation, with the Typhoon or a mock dog fight like I saw at EK last year, now that was good!!
Probably why I like the unusual clipped winged one, as they're diferent.

Maybe coming from bomber county I just like bigger things