XH558s future at Doncaster

[Old Rigger]

Spitfire, well put and I had put up with an awful lot of ill will during all the effort and money I put into fund raising etc, but there comes a time when no matter how much you love something that someone taking the pee and abusing your efforts taints it and it is time to call it a day, though I still love watching videos of Vulcan's flying.

Having seen the first flight again from your post, it reminded me that 558 flew on that day in 2007 and continued to operate from Bruntingthorpe until 2010 and yet now that runway is considered not suitable, apparently, even if was feasible to get her there. Any errors in dates are due to looking at Wikipedia.

[Mayfly]

No, even you don't qualify for that accolade SF.

Some posts are so off the wall they are on another planet.

[Spitfire]

Having seen the first flight again from your post, it reminded me that 558 flew on that day in 2007 and continued to operate from Bruntingthorpe until 2010 and yet now that runway is considered not suitable, apparently, even if was feasible to get her there. Any errors in dates are due to looking at Wikipedia.

Yes it was the 18th October 2007 ...I watched it live on the webcams they provided
Such a wonderful achievement ....

As for 2010 - I don't know - I've consigned that to the back of my mind .... Doncaster for christ's sake

Yep I agree - if a Victor can take off by mistake and then land back on safely within the runway length (watch Bob Prothero's Youtube explanation) then the runway is more than adequate .. perhaps they are worried about air traffic and fire truck facilities .... but even if they were then those could have been updated much cheaper than what actually happened

thanks MF - you had me

[Spitfire]

Last edited by Sooty655 on 02 Feb 2017, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Spitfire's typo corrected.

The original Mr Pedantic for grammar and spelling ... and I made a typo

I'm ashamed of myself

#justliketheolddays

[Mayfly]

Haha I could hear the thump as you fell off your pedestal from here.

I see Dan O on UKar has taken up the offer of an interview with Dr Bob in the form of a pod cast..

[Sooty655]

Less than two weeks ago, the story was ~ The Trust hopes to conclude an agreement to build a new hangar at Doncaster Sheffield Airport, allowing resumption of tours, events, educational visits and engineering activities by the end of 2017.

According to the latest item on the VTTST website ~ Our plans now focus on a dedicated purpose-built facility to be ready for early 2018.

Perhaps the rate the funds aren't coming in has made them change the estimate. Anyone want to start a sweepstake on when (or if) it will really open?

[Spitfire]

I'm in .... £50 on NEVER

[Mayfly]

Go on - stick it in the pot, you know you want to!

[Spitfire]

Go on - stick it in the pot, you know you want to!

Yes - good plan - £50 to the NX611 pot - they deserve it and won't waste it
http://www.lincsaviation.co.uk/news/lancaster-nx611-return-to-flight/

Not another penny to Vulcan To The Shed - EVER ....

[Mayfly]

Podcast with Dr Bob and Dan O if anyone wants to listen. Just over 1hr long and covers a variety of topics.

http://www.airshows.co.uk/podcast/audio ... sode-9.mp3

[Spitfire]

Its a wonder they didn't start with ....Once upon a time ......like all fairy stories ...

Listened to all of it and still NOT convinced ... cloud cuckoo land must be a lovely place ...

Far too many decisions seem to have been taken without thought for the consequences ...

So many questions... not least of which was WHY OH WHY did the revelation about no public being allowed into Hangar 1 SUDDENLY arise in December ... bad management springs to mind as there was no finger on the pulse ...

Another question - why was there NO taxying from end of flight to the current mothball stage - it was live and useable when it landed and it was on a live airport with all the facilities ... but nothing happened except hangar tours and tea parties under the wings ...

The words piss up and brewery come to mind

[Checkflaps]

Not posted here in Way Too Long (also the name of a bad chinese tailor )

Listened to the UKAR podcast - now theres an hour of my life I wont get back!

I was glad that RP was prepared to sit down and have a discussion with DoH, and there was some 'useful' information passed on - but I am still not convinced that they have either the backers or 'expertise' to pull off their vision. RP et al got XH558 back in the air and somehow kept it there - and should be applauded for that, but with the exposure the project had, the vision should have been on a more financially sound footing before the final flight - and with a management team more leant towards what they were aiming for, rather than keeping the existing business model.

I disagree somewhat about the PR9 over the B2/6 - and why not attempt both. One as a flyer to maintain your airworthiness skills and keep the 'company' front and centre at the forthcoming airshow season(s), one as a future aircraft. With a 5 year timeline envisioned (something that was not mooted when they moved 163, it was something 18 months then, to ensure they had a flyer in any RAF100 celebrations), then I'm failing to see how all this is somehow going to all come together.

Probably my most 'enjoyable' part of the podcast was the fluff about the Hangar 7 type model by Red Bull they seem to be pinning it all on. DoH then says - But Red Bull have vast sums of money - and you don't! . The response was the same that we heard for the entire flying life of XH558 'Yes, but we know people who do' It will, IMO, be the same financial farce as with the Vulcan. Very large donors will not dip into their pockets for something like this. There is a reason rich people are rich - and its usually because they are careful about what they do with their money (or they are Premiership footballers). There have been exceptions, and EddieF should be lauded for a very long time for what he put into the Vulcan project - I feel it would have collapsed without his financial assistance. But the large corporates (aside from the OEM's who got some recognition) were not in evidence, and I think the same will happen now.

Least enjoyable part, was the awkward relaying of events around the 'aerobatics'. I felt he could have been a lot more 'corporate' - as he was with the Michael Trotter questioning - and merely stated that, assuming what he said is correct - that the incident was investigated by the CAA and there was no further action. The airframe wasn't overstressed and we were able to continue with or programmed events. End of.

Instead he flustered over the question, gave a half answer, claimed not to be an expert, then got into the discussion about the pilots mindsets about both doing it and afterwards. Unnecessary I felt. There is also the perhaps perceived double standards, whereby the pilots as individuals appear to have copped it for their actions, but the engineering team who had the 'misfortune' with the gel bags get a more collective responsibility, with no finger pointing - more of a 'swiss cheese' moment. Im not saying that the Eng Team should be 'outed', far from it, but that there should have been more consistency with how things were handled. I'd be interested to hear how @Mayfly felt - and 'Mr Mayfly'

Anyway, its been done. The opinions on the various fora will no doubt still be polarized about RP,his 'vision' and in fact the whole Vulcan saga - and from afar, we will just have to grab our popcorn, sit back and see what happens in a few months when the freebie runs out.

Last bit - about the 'new facility'. Working in construction, and also within the realms of county council work, I cannot see how they think they will be in the 'temporary' hangar anytime soon. If they say 2018, I'd better check my diary for Dec 31 2018, as any planning issues, environmental issues, as well as land purchases will take time. Then there is the 'small' matter of tendering for the works, actually clearing the ground, undertaking the groundworks and building the damn thing - although looking at where the proposed plot is, I would guess they won't have far to run the foul sewer . Sadly, I feel that the trusts vision has exceeded reality. I wish them luck, and have no problem eating humble pie if/when I am proven wrong.

Garry

[Mayfly]

Not posted here in Way Too Long (also the name of a bad chinese tailor )


Least enjoyable part, was the awkward relaying of events around the 'aerobatics'. I felt he could have been a lot more 'corporate' - as he was with the Michael Trotter questioning - and merely stated that, assuming what he said is correct - that the incident was investigated by the CAA and there was no further action. The airframe wasn't overstressed and we were able to continue with or programmed events. End of.

Instead he flustered over the question, gave a half answer, claimed not to be an expert, then got into the discussion about the pilots mindsets about both doing it and afterwards. Unnecessary I felt. There is also the perhaps perceived double standards, whereby the pilots as individuals appear to have copped it for their actions, but the engineering team who had the 'misfortune' with the gel bags get a more collective responsibility, with no finger pointing - more of a 'swiss cheese' moment. Im not saying that the Eng Team should be 'outed', far from it, but that there should have been more consistency with how things were handled. I'd be interested to hear how @Mayfly felt - and 'Mr Mayfly'

Garry

Nice to see you around Garry.

All I can say about the 'aerobatics' is that I can not and would not defend the indefensible. It was out of order and I have no idea what they were (or actually weren't) thinking. Regards naming them, it is on public record they were flying so I don't have an issue with that point.

Regards any other comments, I take the 5th!

[Checkflaps]

Cheers Mayfly

I've not run away, 'life' has just gotten in the way somewhat. But I'll try and check in a bit more often.

FWIW, I wasn't trying to defend the actions of the pilots - they're grown ups (actually, do pilots ever grow up?) and can deal with the flak they get / got. It was more the way they appeared to be 'thrown under the bus' that irked me.

I've seen the 'video' of the incident on YouTube (assume thats the only evidence) and I would say whilst its not cast iron what happened, it would pass the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' test.

Anyway, back to moaning about the Doncaster Gin Palace situation

Garry

[Sooty655]

Well, I've finally listened to the whole of the podcast, and I feel as if I'm swimming in snake oil. He is the absolute master at talking a lot and saying nothing. The Q&A they have published on their facebook page and elsewhere isn't much better.
His explanation of his "expenses" is appalling. If he insists on living so far from his job, he should either pay his own costs or quit. A reasonable employer would help out for a short while, but this has gone on for years. Milking the cash-cow with no justification whatever.
The claim that this £200,000 appeal is a one-off sounds awfully familiar, and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. With no income from hangar tours and events, they are effectively saying that income from merchandise sales plus what they have in the bank will pay the wage bill for this year, any (unknown) costs which may accrue for aircraft and equipment storage after April, the fit-out and moving costs associated with the new building, the first lease payment for the new building, and bridge the gap after moving in until the income from tours and events starts to flow.
I have no idea what they have in the bank, as their last published accounts are to October 2015, so there is no information on what has happened since end-of-flight, but it seems to me unlikely they have enough salted away to cover all that.
Presumably we can expect another "one-off" appeal as soon as their lack of adequate planning catches up with them (again).
My opinion hasn't changed ~

[Checkflaps]

Well, I've finally listened to the whole of the podcast, and I feel as if I'm swimming in snake oil. He is the absolute master at talking a lot and saying nothing. The Q&A they have published on their facebook page and elsewhere isn't much better.
His explanation of his "expenses" is appalling. If he insists on living so far from his job, he should either pay his own costs or quit. A reasonable employer would help out for a short while, but this has gone on for years. Milking the cash-cow with no justification whatever.
The claim that this £200,000 appeal is a one-off sounds awfully familiar, and doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. With no income from hangar tours and events, they are effectively saying that income from merchandise sales plus what they have in the bank will pay the wage bill for this year, any (unknown) costs which may accrue for aircraft and equipment storage after April, the fit-out and moving costs associated with the new building, the first lease payment for the new building, and bridge the gap after moving in until the income from tours and events starts to flow.
I have no idea what they have in the bank, as their last published accounts are to October 2015, so there is no information on what has happened since end-of-flight, but it seems to me unlikely they have enough salted away to cover all that.
Presumably we can expect another "one-off" appeal as soon as their lack of adequate planning catches up with them (again).
My opinion hasn't changed ~

Not a lot to add - except that I agree with it.
Maybe we should have a sweepstake as to when the next 'one-off' funding crisis / appeal comes out - due to unforseen circumstances

[Mayfly]

In response to something I've read does anyone remember if or at what time on the pod cast Dr P said the £200k was to pay for redundancies?

[Sooty655]

Not sure where it is in the podcast, but their FB Q&A says ~

The £200,000 one-off appeal is a) to compensate for the immediate loss of the £50,000 per month profit from hangar tours and events, and b) to pay for the costs of restructuring the Trust, including redundancy payments. Restructuring is needed to cut the Trust's cost base by the 75% necessary to place it on a long-term sustainable footing. This will allow the Trust to continue to trade and avoid administration until the tours and events business in the new hangar has restarted.

[Spitfire]

Then there was the cost of the tow truck to drag it round to the new 'smaller' shed

AND

This will allow the Trust to continue to trade and avoid administration until the tours and events business in the new hangar has restarted.

As there is no imminent plan to even start building the new 'glitzy' shed how on earth will this money keep them going until 'tours and events' money starts to generate again

This man couldn't organise a **** in a **** .... fill in your own words - there's several ....

[Sooty655]

Then there was the cost of the tow truck to drag it round to the new 'smaller' shed

That would have been £5 cash-in-hand to the driver. There's no evidence they could possibly have planned ahead and booked it.

[Old Rigger]

Would any of this amount be left, from the Q&A:

This team of 22 employees were responsible for a revenue of over £2,588,000 in the year immediately after the final flight ending on 31st October 2016 – an impressive £118,000 per employee.

[Sooty655]

Would any of this amount be left, from the Q&A:

This team of 22 employees were responsible for a revenue of over £2,588,000 in the year immediately after the final flight ending on 31st October 2016 – an impressive £118,000 per employee.

No way of knowing until the accounts are published, and even then only if you can see through the smoke and mirrors. "Revenue" is presumably gross income, so a lot of it will have gone immediately in wages and hangar rental.

[Mayfly]

Well it appears that the Trust are haemorrhaging loyal supporters.

Not a surprise really but even those who defended them to the hilt through thick and thin now seem to be very vocal in their disapproval.

So sad at the end of the day.

[Sooty655]

Well it appears that the Trust are haemorrhaging loyal supporters.

Not a surprise really but even those who defended them to the hilt through thick and thin now seem to be very vocal in their disapproval.

So sad at the end of the day.

Sad, indeed, but only to be expected the way they have treated both staff and supporters.

[Spitfire]

Sad - but oh so inevitable ....

No need to rearrange this well known saying ...

I ......TOLD .......YOU ....... SO



Doncaster .... BIGGEST mistake ... HUGE