Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

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Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Sooty655 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:52 pm

BBC are reporting that CAA are investigating whether 558 carried out a roll (or two) in the last few flights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-34712346
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Spitfire » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:26 am

I think you are confusing me with somebody who gives a monkeys :ymdevil:

Its in a shed - its in the past - what are they gonna do, ground it :D

No wait ... they could ask for pledges for a legal fund to fight the CAA in the courts :p ;)
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Yorkie » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:05 pm

More to the point..... where's the decent footage of it.

where is youtube when you need it?

you can't f*rt in this country without it being caught on film, this happens and we get grainy stills......

BTW Good on them
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Spitfire » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:41 pm

The more I look at it the more I think its been doctored to make it a bloody good Kev Rumens wingover look more than it is :D

We all know it will roll - Roland Falk proved that way back - so what's the fuss about - anyway its already grounded - get over yourselves ;) :p
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Old Rigger » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:27 pm

I have looked at that 'video' quite a few times and unless it was captured with a digital camera that takes multiple shots on one shutter press (mine can do 6 max), but even with that there are what can only be described as gaps and changing perspectives/shading which a video would not have, so I would also be inclined to believe that it is single shots with a very poor stitching together in a video software programme, but I am not an expert, did not see it, so I will await any official opinion, if we ever get one.

However whether it is a badly presented hoax or it actually turns out to be genuine, who cares, nothing happened, nothing was going to happen, the aircraft isn't going to fly again, not that I think the CAA would have grounded her anyway if it did happen.

So I think that jumping on the outrage bus is a bit ott, but in today's risk averse, pink & fluffy PC world it is only natural and is to be expected that some will wring their hands and get there knickers in a twist over things like this.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:59 pm

It even says in the video description it's been hashed together from stills for a laugh.


Spitfire, your filling the forum with anti Vulcan trust comments is getting a little boring now... Please feel free to dump it all on a different forum... Preferably one I don't partake in.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Old Rigger » Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:25 pm

It even says in the video description it's been hashed together from stills for a laugh.


Did not know that, if that's the case how come that the papers have still run with it and why would the CAA claim they are investigating and all the people who have stated that they saw it as well.

Can I respectfully ask that had Spitfire 'filled the forum' with sycophantic comments demonstrating blind faith and support for the Vulcan trust would you also request he takes it somewhere else as it would be a little boring, which that is for me, but would not ask them to take their thoughts somewhere else though.

Just a polite question, not wanting to start a flame war that drove a lot of us from the Vulcan forum to here for the same reasons in the first place.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:00 pm

Old Rigger wrote:
It even says in the video description it's been hashed together from stills for a laugh.


Did not know that, if that's the case how come that the papers have still run with it and why would the CAA claim they are investigating and all the people who have stated that they saw it as well.

Can I respectfully ask that had Spitfire 'filled the forum' with sycophantic comments demonstrating blind faith and support for the Vulcan trust would you also request he takes it somewhere else as it would be a little boring, which that is for me, but would not ask them to take their thoughts somewhere else though.

Just a polite question, not wanting to start a flame war that drove a lot of us from the Vulcan forum to here for the same reasons in the first place.



I havnt a problem with his opinion or indeed anyone else's, but to read the same thing in all the current threads... Quite what funding has to do with a hoax barrel roll is beyond me.

Believe me, i adore the aircraft, ground crew and aircrew.... I adore David Walton because HE started this all off and has never had the credit he deserves. The trust and management of the project I'm not so impressed with but I don't find every opportunity possible to stick a knife in and twist.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Old Rigger » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:08 am

Thats fair enough Vulcan Bomber, as has been said before these forums, twitter/facebook would not exist for long if everyone just sang the same happy clappy mantras or spouted the same doom and gloom one either, it is the diverse opinions that can be voiced without ending up in messy slanging matches which make them what they are, as against what the Vulcan forum did if you aired any other view than how wonderful everthing in the garden was.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Spitfire » Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:49 pm

Vulcan Bomber wrote:Spitfire, your filling the forum with anti Vulcan trust comments is getting a little boring now... Please feel free to dump it all on a different forum... Preferably one I don't partake in.


OOooooo Now there's a challenge .... Perhaps I could put it on the VTST forum ..... oh no hang on I can't do that because they won't allow it .... But in the time honoured tradition of free speech I am allowed to here ;)
So I could take exception to being 'made' to go elsewhere when in fact the reverse could also be a possibility - like the VTST forum I could request that if you don't like it you could go elsewhere .....but that's not very nice is it :p

Vulcan Bomber wrote:I havnt a problem with his opinion or indeed anyone else's, but to read the same thing in all the current threads... Quite what funding has to do with a hoax barrel roll is beyond me.

In this thread it was a joke - you know - mirth - laughter - fun ... but like all jokes some don't see the funny side ... but some do and if you didn't well ... tough ;)

Vulcan Bomber wrote:The trust and management of the project I'm not so impressed with but I don't find every opportunity possible to stick a knife in and twist.

Why not - that's how change happens - how we grow and develop - how we affect things - how we mould and adapt. If all you ever get is sycophants sucking up to you - and those very sycophants won't brook any opposition to the party line then you think you are doing a grand job and all's right with the world. But that's not how it should be - we should be entitled to needle and question and disagree at every opportunity in the hope that some of it sticks and change occurs.
The fact that you agree with me and then find it boring because I continue to raise it wherever - even in jest - is strange indeed :-\

I should add - yet again - and just to clarify - that up until first flight during the restoration phase I pumped in hundreds of pounds - I was besotted and in awe of the project - I was a staunch advocate of Mr Walton for his foresight - and I still think he's a force for good in aircraft restoration. I sucked in all that was said and done by the Trust. Indeed, like your user name on here, I have an email address which has 'xh558' in it and because I can't be arsed to change it - and for old times sake - it'll stay as it is. ;) I also have a rather large framed picture above my head, as I type, of said plane lifting off and climbing away steeply :D
Oh and as an edit - before I am criticised for bashing those at the sharp end - I have nothing but admiration for all the engineers and volunteers - be they waged or un-waged - who maintained the plane and fought to keep it serviceable - even the prat person that left the bags of desiccant in the intakes :D :p

But then came the flight phase - the whole thing suddenly changed dramatically ... the gravy train pulled out of the station and carriages were being liberally added as it left. It became a one aircraft airline.
Money was being raised and spent in obscene amounts by a never ending deluge of variations on the 'give us your money or else' theme ... funding thermometers and gauges abounded all to frighten us into giving more and we never really saw where it went. So I stopped contributing after the first year of flight and over the next few years lost more and more confidence and trust in what was happening and why.
I for one thought that the HUGE cost of the leading edge upgrade to get one more pretty lacklustre year was totally wrong, a massive waste of money and I suspect the motivations for that decision were coupled onto the gravy train I mentioned.
You may see my views as jaundiced - but after 30 odd years working in retail environments I can only say that my experiences tell me that project seems to have been be ruled by fear, with a big stick, under a motto that 'The beatings will continue until moral improves' scenario ~x(

There are those with rose tinted spectacles who can see no wrong in all this - and all I can say to them is good for you. But I reserve the right to continue to question and if that's seen as knife twisting and boring then so be it.
The plane - god bless it - (sorry she/her whatever) is now stuck in a shed in entirely the wrong place and I for one - and I never thought all those years ago I'd say this - am glad its all over at last. The final flight was one of the worst debacles I have EVER witnessed :(

But, from the rumours being promulgated, I don't think that ALL of it is all over - the gravy train has slowed but needs a new engine - so there'll be another mega wheeze along soon ... and off we'll go again ;) :D

So - if you're bored - move along people - nothing to see here :ymdevil:
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Kermit » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:59 pm

Unfortunately for Iconic, people are indeed moving away.
Well done.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Old Rigger » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:34 pm

Really Kermit, people are moving away from Iconic because a couple of people don't tow some newly invented rule and others have had their sensibilities upset because those people exercise their right to hold different views to them, if anything is going to drive people away it is going to be that, this thread is starting to go the way they used to on the Vulcan forum and that is what drives people away, its the perceived censorship conundrum all over again.

XH558 is gone and yet people are still getting in a tizzy when people still comment about the drivel that is is still published from the project and the 'we know something you don't about what happens next but not going to tell you yet', had enough of that over the 8 successful years of flying. Oh my how dare I, must go to the naughty corner.

Its like watching the tv and complaining that BBC1 is rubbish, but don't consider turning over to another channel, if people don't like someone's posts then don't read them, and certainly don't respond to them, anyway I will also make you happy as this will be my last post you will no doubt be pleased to read, I just could not be bothered anymore.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Mayfly » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:25 pm

Oh for goodness sake don't make me do any moderating I'll have to go into training first! B-)
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Spitfire » Thu Nov 05, 2015 10:52 pm

Old Rigger wrote:Really Kermit, people are moving away from Iconic because a couple of people don't tow some newly invented rule and others have had their sensibilities upset because those people exercise their right to hold different views to them, if anything is going to drive people away it is going to be that, this thread is starting to go the way they used to on the Vulcan forum and that is what drives people away, its the perceived censorship conundrum all over again.

XH558 is gone and yet people are still getting in a tizzy when people still comment about the drivel that is is still published from the project and the 'we know something you don't about what happens next but not going to tell you yet', had enough of that over the 8 successful years of flying. Oh my how dare I, must go to the naughty corner.

Its like watching the tv and complaining that BBC1 is rubbish, but don't consider turning over to another channel, if people don't like someone's posts then don't read them, and certainly don't respond to them, anyway I will also make you happy as this will be my last post you will no doubt be pleased to read, I just could not be bothered anymore.


I completely agree - people are indeed moving away from Iconic - and have been for years - because social media like Facebook and Twitter is far better equipped and forums are dying all over ...

But Mr Kermit sir if you perceive its me and my naughty views on VTST then I too will depart - again - and cease posting and just stay in the background to see the hoards and cohorts who return when the bad boys are gone - put the word out - its safe to come back :ymdevil: :ymdevil:

I too cannot be bothered any more - I have much more interesting things to do .....Bye :D
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Kermit » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:37 am

I could probably have written my last post more diplomatically you are of course entitled to your opinion. I actually agree with some of your points, but you do go on about it and people do get fed up and eventually vote with their feet.
Their loss but also Iconic s.
Surely if you criticise you have to accept some criticism yourself ?
Hope this clears the air.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Dougs » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:44 pm

yes all very good but,,,,,,,,,,
DID IT ROLL!!!!!!!!!!! B-) B-) B-) :-o B-) B-)
Propper proud of em if they did, its a very risky thing to do them Olympi dont like being upside down!
would have done it myself if i was a retiring pilot flying one of the best military planes ever to grace the skies :ymapplause:
B-)
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:10 pm

No she didn't

The Olympus isn't bothered about being upside down.... It even has a hopper tank on the fuel system to make sure it's happy upside down...
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Bubbles » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:58 pm

You lot are funny. Keep it up. :D
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Dougs » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:24 pm

Hi VB I am not referring to fuel its the oil that's an issue Sooty could confirm this as he is the Vulcan Olympus expert but I understand it can't fly upside down for more than 45s (which is actually quite a lot I know) I do realise it's unlikely that it did get rolled. However I did get to see Martin throw a couple of epic turns at EMA and I did get to see the top of the aircraft from the ground B-) so I can't grumble.
Amazing how everything seems to get so serious soooo quickly :-o
Tis no wonder why forums die off so quick now days
Last edited by Dougs on Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Sooty655 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:15 pm

Vulcan Bomber wrote:The Olympus isn't bothered about being upside down.... It even has a hopper tank on the fuel system to make sure it's happy upside down...

To clarify, the Olympus is VERY unhappy about being run under negative g conditions. There is no oil scavenge from the bearing housings, oil pickup from the engine tank can also be problematic, and it rapidly either runs out of oil or starts burning it in the internal air system.

If by a "hopper tank" you mean the fuel recuperators, they are there to cater for SHORT TERM fuel supply interruption due to negative g effects on the fuel pick-up, not because it is permitted but because it would make a bad situation worse if the engine(s) flamed out.

A barrel roll is fine if flown correctly, an aileron roll is not, and prolonged inverted flight is definitely not.
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Mayfly » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:15 pm

IF it happened......

To me it's not down to whether it was safe or not or whether the a/c is capable of doing such a manoeuvre we know the airframe can stand it and the aircrew are capable.

It's more about breeching the terms of the P to F [-x
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:20 pm

Sooty655 wrote:
Vulcan Bomber wrote:The Olympus isn't bothered about being upside down.... It even has a hopper tank on the fuel system to make sure it's happy upside down...

To clarify, the Olympus is VERY unhappy about being run under negative g conditions. There is no oil scavenge from the bearing housings, oil pickup from the engine tank can also be problematic, and it rapidly either runs out of oil or starts burning it in the internal air system.

If by a "hopper tank" you mean the fuel recuperators, they are there to cater for SHORT TERM fuel supply interruption due to negative g effects on the fuel pick-up, not because it is permitted but because it would make a bad situation worse if the engine(s) flamed out.

A barrel roll is fine if flown correctly, an aileron roll is not, and prolonged inverted flight is definitely not.



I was meaning with positive G on, simply because a Vulcan isnt stressed for negative G... And yes I ment recuperators but couldnt think of the proper word.




A better vid of the roll has appeared on youtube...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmPbl7_m4-g
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Re: Vulcan "roll" being investigated.

Postby Ray C » Sat Nov 07, 2015 5:23 pm

So....It didn't roll & we've possibly lost three interesting forum contributors.....Just great. :-o
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