F1 Accident

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F1 Accident

Postby Mayfly » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:44 am

Sad news about the accident involving Jules Bianchi. Severe head injuries that required an operation.

Wishing him well soon.
In memory of a very dear friend - Mike Pearson

Very fond memories of Robbie Gilvary - DTs 1st Vulcan Captain who taught DT all he knew.
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Re: F! Accident

Postby Aceyone » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:34 am

Ditto !
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Dee » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:30 pm

wishing him the best
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:15 am

I've just seen a video of his crash :-o :-o :-o :-o

I hope he pulls through ok - it was pretty bad :(
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Mayfly » Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:06 am

It was horrendous wasn't it!

I'm not sure how feasible it would be but my first thoughts were would it better to leave the 1st car where until the end of the race - as far as I could see there was no debris on the track, after all a rescue vehicle is a much more solid obstacle to hit. Or should rescue vehicles only work behind the safety barriers?

All accidents are a combination of incidents that come together in one moment of time.....they will never be eliminated completely but I will be interested in any recommendations made in the aftermath.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:55 am

Mayfly wrote:All accidents are a combination of incidents that come together in one moment of time


Yes - Causa Causans & Causa Sine Que Non ;) Latin expressions used to describe how an accident happened - the first one is the 'Causing Cause' - i.e. his car hit the tractor - the second one is literally translated as 'Without Which Not' - so all the millions of things that lead up to placing those 2 things, at that point, at that time ...

So using your line above - the Causa Sine Que Non principle - if they'd left it then chances are another car would have left the track at that same point and hit it .. :( My Dad - an ex Copper - used to say - 'look at all the big spaces between telegraph poles - yet a car will always hit the pole - and normally dead centre'

They were presumably under waved yellow or even double waved yellows - but then fate being what it is its a risky sport and much worse in the rain - but everyone knows and understands the risks and to try and remove it was probably best practice - but unfortunate.

I remember an F1 incident years ago where the medical car arrived at an accident (good old Sid Watkins - bless him) and he opened the door when another F1 car left the track at the same spot and wiped his open door clean off just as he was getting out - what are the chances of that ;)

And then Schumacher didn't get an F1 scratch and was badly injured skiing ...Graham Hill dies flying a plane in fog ...Mike Hawthorn died in his Jag Mk 1 being an arse on Guildford bypass going to get chips ...

It's just bad fate :(
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Sooty655 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:08 am

I think they will have to use cranes rather than tractors, similar to what they do at Monaco. F1 cars aren't very heavy, and a modern heavy lift telescopic crane could cover a long length of barrier.

I wonder if it is significant that the waved green flag, indicating the end of the double-waved-yellows caution section, was right at the site of Sutil's crash. Given that the drivers would be looking ahead, did Bianchi see the green flag ahead and accelerate into the corner?
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:09 am

Just seen this ...

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/yes-a ... ole-story/

It's all probability and risk ... who would have thought that Henry Surtees would have been killed instantly by a flying wheel - he was blameless and just in the wrong place and the wrong time - but doing something he knew to be dangerous - driving a racing car at speed ...

Marshalls and flags and tractors and cranes are all meaningless really ... the green flag didn't make Bianchi accelerate at that precise moment then go too fast and lose control - fingers have to point in several directions ... Causa Sine Que Non :(
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Sooty655 » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:24 pm

Spitfire wrote:Just seen this ...

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/yes-a ... ole-story/

It's all probability and risk ... who would have thought that Henry Surtees would have been killed instantly by a flying wheel - he was blameless and just in the wrong place and the wrong time - but doing something he knew to be dangerous - driving a racing car at speed ...

Marshalls and flags and tractors and cranes are all meaningless really ... the green flag didn't make Bianchi accelerate at that precise moment then go too fast and lose control - fingers have to point in several directions ... Causa Sine Que Non :(


I can't agree with you there. If the FIA had taken that attitude years ago we would still be seeing virtually every crashed car burst into flames, every damaged car shedding wheels into the crowd, and cars having to be cut apart to get the injured driver out.

I agree that no one change will mean it (or something similar) can't ever happen again, but risk management is a process of evolution, not revolution. It is all the small changes that add up.

And I don't think you can say the green flag didn't make Bianchi accelerate. That is exactly what he is paid to do, and it is reported the data shows he did accelerate.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:26 pm

Sooty655 wrote:I can't agree with you there. If the FIA had taken that attitude years ago we would still be seeing virtually every crashed car burst into flames, every damaged car shedding wheels into the crowd, and cars having to be cut apart to get the injured driver out.

I agree that no one change will mean it (or something similar) can't ever happen again, but risk management is a process of evolution, not revolution. It is all the small changes that add up.

And I don't think you can say the green flag didn't make Bianchi accelerate. That is exactly what he is paid to do, and it is reported the data shows he did accelerate.


No - you misunderstood - or I explained myself badly - I agree with you totally about the safety changes over the years etc what I was trying to say is that there is not just one element at work here - it was several things together - from that map it seems the marshall with the green flag was trying to say its clear 'from here' i.e. after me it's clear ... ok Bianchi then accelerated - but the marshall nor the tractor made him come off the track - he did that on his own ... bad weather - poor decision - misreading the flags ... who knows

Also - even If a crane had been there, like in Monaco - someone still has to attach the car to the crane - and the car is still there in the way - so fate being fate another car is just as likely to hit that or the marshall attaching flags or no flags (see the medical car door I mentioned) - and be fair what F1 driver lifts off much under waved yellows - we are talking hairs breadths here at those speeds - as you say they are being paid lots of money to win so will have their eyes on the main chance ...

My mate in the office has just said - "well they shouldn't drive so fast" ... which just about says it all - its a dangerous sport.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:48 pm

Here's a revitalised idea that someone has put forward ... enclosed cockpits ...

Image

That would have saved Henry Surtees life at least - and Massa's head injury from flying debris...

I quite like the look of that - although the purists are saying its 'against the spirit if F1'

Red Bull boss Christian Horner saying the proposed solutions were "shockingly ugly".

Bernie Ecclestone has argued that closed cockpits are contrary to the basic idea of F1 (but he has a huge financial axe to grind).

But - if it's safer - so what?
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Dougs » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:11 pm

in thisinstance an enclosed cockpit would have probably ment a fatality looking at what happend it shot under the balance weight (aprox 2-3t) and liffted it so it would almost certainly broken the the roof off and pushed it into the driver. open cockpits are not the problem here a 3t block of steel between the track and soft (ish) wall is. easy answer in this case recover from above if safe to do so. i would be very supprised if thats not the action taken.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Mayfly » Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:49 pm

Exactly my thoughts Dougs I'm surprised, as horrific as the accident was, the result wasn't even worse.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Sooty655 » Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:10 pm

The reports on Bianchi's injury say "diffuse axonal injury", which as I understand it means the brain was damaged by impact with the inside of the skull due to rapid deceleration. Putting a closed cockpit on wouldn't improve that, in fact it might make it worse if the cover hit something the car would otherwise have gone under.

I don't see how you could have a strong enough structural cabin and still have easy access to remove an injured driver. In that respect, it could be a serious step backwards.

However, with respect to Christian Horner, after this year's anteater (et al) front wing supports, I don't think you could reject anything on aesthetic grounds.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Bovril » Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:31 pm

I agree with sooty, even with a enclosed cockpit I think it would have still been smashed in.

the cars would need to become bigger , oh that's almost the le-mans formula
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:21 pm

I didn't say I advocated enclosed cockpits - I put it forward as an interesting idea that I'd seen ;)

I see, and agree, that in this case it may not have helped - BUT it would have saved both Henry Surtees from being killed outright by a flying wheel and Massa's injury from flying debris. So in my mind it has mileage as a potential safety feature.

But I also acknowledge the limitations - getting it off to get at the driver being number 1 ...

I also wonder if the HANS device did its work in this crash?
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Sooty655 » Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:29 pm

Looking at his position in the cockpit after the crash, my guess is that the HANS did its job, preventing the head (assisted by the weight of the helmet) flying forward onto the chest in the event of a front impact.

Sadly, if the deceleration is great enough, the HANS will tend to add to the possible brain injury, although I guess preventing a broken neck is more important.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:17 am

Blimey - just like the old days - we nearly had a thread going then :D :p ;)
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Sooty655 » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:38 pm

Spitfire wrote:Blimey - just like the old days - we nearly had a thread going then :D :p ;)

We still do. :p :p

Latest from Charlie Whiting and the FIA is they are meeting with the teams to discuss ways to make the drivers slow down more under caution conditions, being described by some as a virtual safety car.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:42 pm

Apparently the idea is that Charlie has a button he can select that limits all the cars speeds automatically :p

He said the same as we've said that they don't lift off enough under yellow flag .. ;)
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Spitfire » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:11 pm

Report released :
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/accident-panel-releases-findings-blames-bianchi-for-suzuka-tragedy

So it was driver error - he didn't slow enough - as none of them do - and the car BBW system was also at fault which didn't help him one bit :(

Spitfire wrote: ok Bianchi then accelerated - but the marshall nor the tractor made him come off the track - he did that on his own ... bad weather - poor decision - misreading the flags ... who knows


But it also concludes - as has been discussed here - that its no good enclosing cockpits or covering tractors in bubble wrap - the drivers must slow down more on yellow flags - and it seems this will finally be enforced ....... stable door/horse ;) :(
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Mayfly » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:17 am

Jules Bianchi - 1989 - 2015

Jules Bianchi has died 9 months after sustaining head injuries which put him in a coma in the Japanese GP in October 2014.

RIP Jules.
In memory of a very dear friend - Mike Pearson

Very fond memories of Robbie Gilvary - DTs 1st Vulcan Captain who taught DT all he knew.
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Re: F1 Accident

Postby Aceyone » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:25 am

Very sad !
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