5 inch Gauge 9F

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5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:18 pm

I'm starting this build thread for my latest project, If there is enough interest I will keep you upto date with whats going on.

The project is to build a working scale model of a Standard Class 9 (or 9f) steam locomotive. The model will run on a track of 5 inch Gauge, and will be around 6 feet in length with its tender.

The reason: quite simple really, I like big boys toys and being a CNC machinist by day I have the abilities, the knowledge and the facilities to make just about anything. I also like learning and I will learn alot by the time the model is built. I will also have something to show for my efforts. Some one also has to keep up with Dougs and his 2 tank engines!!


What is a Standard Class 9: The Standard class 9 was the last class of steam engine built in Great Britain, indeed 92220 "Evening Star" was the last steam engine built in the class and also the last steam Locomotive built in Britain (Until Tornado and her boiler is German). The Class was designed by Robert A Riddles as a Fast, Heavy freight hauler and this it excelled at. The class was also found to be very good at express passenger services, it managed to run at 90MPH safely, at these speeds its wheels and valve gear are rotating at 8 1/2 times a second!
251 Locomotives were built, and 9 are currently still in existence in preservation, some are running some are not, They include 92220 Evening Star who now resides, in Silence at the National Rail Musem in York, 92203 Black Prince, who runs on the the North Norfolk Railway, 92212 who runs on the Water cress line in Hampshire, 92214 who runs on the North York Moors Railway. There is also 92134, 92007, 92119, 92240 and 92245 in existance either under or awaiting restoration. However a big loco costs alot to restore so I doubt we'll be seeing these any time soon.


I have made a start on the model but I haven't Photographed any bits of it yet, this I will endevor to do in the week some time and I will update this thread with them. I have drawings for the model, drawn by ex BR draughtsman Les Warnett but he's not made the model in the same way the real Loco was made so I plan to go to York to look at the original Drawings, get the info I need and start building my model in the same way the Original 9F was made.

I hope I havnt bored you all before we've started!

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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby RLN » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:26 pm

I don't think we will be bored. This sort of stuff gets lapped up.......can't wait. Besides, Dougs could do with some competition :D
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:44 am

RLN wrote:I don't think we will be bored. This sort of stuff gets lapped up.......can't wait. Besides, Dougs could do with some competition :D

:)) Bring it on!!! :p
looking forward to seeing this!

(think we are taking over a bit :-o )
how bout a rename ICONIC AIRCRAFT 'N' THE ODD LO.CO.UK :p
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:35 pm

I've managed to get some pictures of most of the (few) bits that I've done.

These are 3 of the 5 Brake beams, there made from 3 separate pieces silver soldered together, these need finishing off with a drilled hole in either end to take a split pin to hold the Hangers on.... this will become clear in a minute.

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These are the Brake Hangers, I will hopefully finish these tomorrow evening, they have been milled from 1 bit of solid steel, and then the bottom diameter has been turned on a Lathe with the aid of a fixture.

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Next picture is the Hangers and the Beams together, there is a £1 coin in the pic to give you an idea of the size.

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This is the Rear Brake Shaft and its support Bushes, the shaft is 4 separate pieces, pegged to line everything up and then silver soldered to hold all together. The bushes are Phosphor Bronze.

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Now onto a different part of the model, the next bits are all part of the Pony Truck, I am hoping to get the base of the pony truck soon as a laser cut plate, I will then, hopefully be able to put a few things together. These first bits are the Spring Beams.

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Followed by the Lower Spring Seat.

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The Horn Cheeks. These will bolt direct to the base, the Axle Box will then fit in the gap.

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The Horn stays. These bolt on top of the Horn Cheeks to keep them in the right place.

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These next bits are a Damper on the Pony Truck.

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I have made a start on the Valve Gear, these are the Union Links.
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I then got bored of turning and milling the small bits so I have done the Smoke Box Door Ring. (the smoke box door will fill the hole)

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And these bits are the Buffer Heads and Buffer Stocks.

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Hopefully thats enough to keep you going, I honestly thought I'd done more than that!

I'll do my best to answer questions.

Thanks for looking.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:17 pm

Wow love the union links they look great :)
Have you got any plans afoot for the frames? With your skills and kit I bet the frames are gonna look amazing
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:35 pm

The frames will be laser cut for me by Malcolm at Model Engineers Laser, along with buffer beams and such like. The loco's frames will be 3mm plate, a bit thicker than I want but if I reduce the thickness then I will have to jiggle so much that i'll never finish the model. Things like the buffer beams will be thinner (i'll decide this when i've been to the Archives at York and i've seen the full size Loco's drawings) but again they'll be laser cut. Once i get the frames theres something like 700 holes to drill in the right places......
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:54 pm

A little update.

This evening I managed to turn the last of the brake hangers.
The first picture shows the last one mounted on its fixture which is held in the lathes 3 jaw chuck and you can also see the grooving tool used to remove the metal.

Image

And this Picture shows the bare fixture, the bolt is a standard 5mm cap head bolt, the diameter the bolt screws in is 6.35mm (1/4 inch) this located the brake hanger in the correct position to be turned.. The bolt used is very long, the bolt is the strength in the fixture not the location diameter, the fixture is only made of aluminum. You will then see that there is a peg close to the outside Diameter of the fixture, this is used to drive the Brake Hanger.

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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:31 am

wow VB thats some setup for one part (type) BTW how many brakes are there. All ten wheels?
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:40 am

Yes, 10 steam operated brakes on the loco's driving wheels, operated by a pair of cylinders and then 6 screw operated on the tender, the tender brakes are used as the hand brake.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:37 pm

Dont worry I havnt gone quiet!!!

Today i've got a pic of the Pony Truck Pivot..

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My head of section at work Turned this for me while he had nothing to do (and he's got to do something to earn a drive), then, because my Dad has nothing to do at his work (he's a very very good miller) he's milled it for me... Les Warnett decided that this part of the model should be fabricated from 2 bits of angle, a bit of flat plate and a washer, I decided other wise. Yesterday I was at York, and had a good nose around 92220 Evening Star and the full size method is a bit of bent plate. The one i've done for the model is pretty close to looking right.


In other news, we had a look at alot of the drawings of the frames and the stretchers and me and Edward have realized just how many bits Les Warnett has changed or even missed out in the frames of the model, so I will (when funds allow) be getting copies of the drawings for the frames and stretchers to make the bits Les has missed out.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:12 pm

Nice work VB the devil is in the detail I commend your policy of originality it will make it look so much better :ymapplause:
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:13 pm

Dougs wrote:Nice work VB the devil is in the detail I commend your policy of originality it will make it look so much better :ymapplause:


I've never been a fan of doing half a job, it was trained out of me when I was an apprentice.

I will be losing some weight in the model through altering material thicknesses and construction methods so by adding things that Les Warnett hasnt drawn or altered will add the weight to the Model which is a good thing, the higher the adhesive weight the more "grip" she'll get and the more punters she'll pull on public running days.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:54 pm

Due to me having a great new boss, i've been into work today to make some more bits for the Model but first of all a little catch up with the following picture:

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You will have already seen the Rear Brake Shaft, in the above picture is the Front Brake Shaft and its support bushes. I made these a while back but they've been sat under my bench at work half forgotten about. For them that didnt know the 9F has 2 Steam Brake Cylinders, the front set consists of the Leading and Leading Intermediate axles, the Rear Set consists of the Driving, Trailing Intermediate and Trailing axles.

And onto todays progress:

Being in work today has given me a rare opportunity to get on to the XYZ Turret mill we have at work, so today I started off making the rear brake shafts support brackets. I've taken a few pics so you can see how I did them.

So to start with, find some round bar, stick it in a decent chuck thats nailed down to the table on the Mill, skim the top face and rough out the profile.

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Next centre drill all the holes.

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Then drill all the holes, the rivet holes are 2.2mm, the 6 bolt holes are 1.8mm to be tapped 8BA and the hole yet to be drilled is about to become a rough 10mm hole ready for the next bit.

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So all holes in, we finish the profile.

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And using the same 8mm end mill, Interpolate the hole that will locate the shafts support bush.

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Check the bush fits.

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Ok so we have an issue now, lots of stock on the back of the job so obviously, we go over to the Lathe and part them off.

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Next these bits will go onto the Surface Grinder to take the last 8 or so thou off the back face, tap the holes out and deburr.

I have also managed to make good progress this afternoon on the rear cylinder bracket, hopefully finishing them tomorrow when i hope to be able to put some pics up of them.

Thats all for now though.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:40 pm

Time for another little update on the 9F....

As we know, I managed to get onto our CNC Turret Mill at work over christmas and make a good start on some of the brackets for the brake shafts, well today I managed to finish off the Front Brake Shaft and Cylinder Support Brackets.

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And this final pic is with the shaft sat in its bushes...

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I mensioned in my last update that i've ordered drawings from York, one of the drawings is for the stretcher these brackets bolt upto, so hopefully i'll be fabricating/machining that up very soon.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:08 am

Nice work VB this is going to be one very nice loco :)
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Tue Feb 04, 2014 12:20 am

Dougs wrote:Nice work VB this is going to be one very nice loco :)


Theres plenty of time to ruin it yet!!! :)
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:18 pm

And another little update.

One of the quick simple little jobs for the Tender has been started so here's a couple of pics..


First ones a bit of lazy drilling off the Lathe's tool post..

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That is the only pic I took of them being turned.... However, after drilling, flat bottom drilling and then a final skim to make a decent round hole the bits on question went with my dad for milling.... The end Result is....

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These are the Buffers on the front of the tender, these are to Les Warnett's Drawings, I stayed with his design because you cant see them when the Loco and Tender are joined.... However i've recently found that Doug Hewson (another well known model Loco designer) has done them closer to scale size which is a slight shame but something I can live with.

The good news is that my little girl approves of her Dad's and Grandad's handy work though...

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Thanks for looking.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Spitfire » Fri Feb 07, 2014 11:31 pm

Very good ... earlier on I was fascinated by the use of the word 'interpolate' ... I know what I think it means .. but realised that it may be a term used in machining more frequently and looked it up on Google only to find this sentence on another forum ...
What is the best tolerence and cylindricity one can expect when milling a round hole by interpolation on a typical CNC mill or vertical machining center?


:-o :-o Is this still english??? ..... None the wiser ... more confused :D :D
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:01 am

Spitfire wrote:Very good ... earlier on I was fascinated by the use of the word 'interpolate' ... I know what I think it means .. but realised that it may be a term used in machining more frequently and looked it up on Google only to find this sentence on another forum ...
What is the best tolerence and cylindricity one can expect when milling a round hole by interpolation on a typical CNC mill or vertical machining center?


:-o :-o Is this still english??? ..... None the wiser ... more confused :D :D


I'll do my best then.......

On a CNC Milling Machine the CNC control can move the table (and there for the job) in a motion that generates a hole. This means you can use a cutter of any size to make any size hole bigger than the cutter. depending on what limits are on the hole, you may continue on to bore the hole after, the reason for this is that CNC's dont make a perfect circle and cant be expected to either, the bigger the hole, the worse they get... the older the machine the worse they get. The bracket I made using this technique was more than adequate for the application.

I've found a semi decent video, this shows 3 axis interpolation, whats happening is the machines table (these are the X and Y axis) are moving to generate the hole, the 3rd axis (the Z or spindle axis) is lowering the tool deeper into the work piece with each rotation to remove the metal. As the machine does it, it looks like its moving in a spiral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg_fxcVvZtM

Industry standard machines will obviously be a lot faster and will remove a lot more material with each pass, however the theory is still the same.

While I'm at it, here's a video of one of my lathes at my last place I worked making bolts for a friend of mines current project.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6N5jZ9-uvs


Hope that helps and keeps you interested. :)) :))
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:10 am

Just means making a circle with two or three axis usually x axis and y axis on a mill. Say north and south are the y axis and east west are the x axis you start from dead north and move west and south drawing an arc till you get to dead west then you head south and East making an arc till you end up dead south (you now have half a circle) so next you head north east drawing an arc till you end up dead east then the final arc is north west back to the start point. The movement of both these axes at the same time is called interpolation it gets a bit messy when you add a third axis but basically you can produce a screw by moving all three together
Simples :-o

Edit wow VB you beat me to it lol

Nice work BTW I have been hacking my axle boxes about tonight nearly done with them
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:15 am

I think you gave the better explanation however.....


I think my axle boxes are way off at the minute, i'm thinking they'll get a redesign to accept needle roller bearings, naughty and not prototypical but easier to maintain.
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Spitfire » Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:47 am

Yes ... mmmmm .... I think I may have got it ... ish ;)

My only experience of industrial lathes was when I was a student in 1971 my Dad got me a summer job in a factory where the boss soon realised I had a brain so he got me on a Ward 7 with a 6 sided capstan... It was bar feeding 4" copper bar so I could make the copper rods that go inside the glass insulators on electricity pylons :p

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All I remember was the cutting tools on 4 of the capstan sides thinning down one end - gear levers I had to move to change the head speed for the different jobs - then a thread box that cut a thread then snapped open when it was cut - then the parting off tool .... oh and the horrible white liquid - suds - that lubricated the work :D I made hundred and hundreds all summer :(( There was a short break for one week whilst I worked on another lathe feeding hexagon bar making big nuts for lorries .. internal thread box - chamfers - and parting off ... very interesting but also soul destroying :D :D

The factory had a reputation for making precision parts so they often got orders from the carriage mews at Buckingham Palace for 6 coach bolts ... the bloke on that lathe might take 2 days setting up the lathe to just cut those six :p

PS ... I realised that if you took the suds off and the copper got too hot the shavings that came off had amazing brilliant colours ... like works of art .... my colleagues were not impressed .. no aesthetics ... just get the suds on and do the job :)) :))

That's why I ended up as the Manager of a Building Society =))
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Dougs » Sat Feb 08, 2014 8:36 am

Wow Spitfire hats off to you for sticking it out I couldn't do it myself it would destroy me mentally within a day I hate repetitive work which is why I went into maintenance lots of variety ;)
Vulcan Bomber wrote:I think you gave the better explanation however.....


I think my axle boxes are way off at the minute, i'm thinking they'll get a redesign to accept needle roller bearings, naughty and not prototypical but easier to maintain.


This may be of no use to you at all but I have found running butch and from what I have seen that brass or gunmetal bearings are very very good and there is virtually no maintenance required (should last as long as the loco) like all the rest of the loco though it just needs a good oiling before every run. Nothing wrong with using bearings tho if you do go that way, but one word of warning don't make it too tight a tolerance the whole bottom end could seize up over bumps if there is not enough play (already had that issue) :-o
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:47 pm

Cant beat a Ward Capstan Lathe, they are very good machines. Not worked one myself but I have seen one in action.. Capstan Lathe's sadly have been replaced by CNC machines, the video I put the link to of the Tornado lathe was making them fitted bolts in 1 min 30 seconds, and thats without pushing the machine or the tools even slightly, they'd take alot longer on a Capstan. The Tornado, thinking about it was 15 or so years old so in the CNC world not far from archaic, where I work now we have a twin spindle, 8 Axis lathe.


As for soul destroying, as an apprentice I spent 6 months Chamfering and polishing the parting off face of washers, I was very close to jacking my apprenticeship and going to drive a forklift or something like that.
Nothing wrong with using bearings tho if you do go that way, but one word of warning don't make it too tight a tolerance the whole bottom end could seize up over bumps if there is not enough play (already had that issue)


If you had seen some stuff i've produced over the years you'll realise theres no danger of the model 9F having any issues in that department.... =)) =)) =)) =)) =))
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Re: 5 inch Gauge 9F

Postby Vulcan Bomber » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:08 pm

And a little bit more progress on the 9F happened today while I was showing my head of section how to work one of the works milling machines to make bits for his steam engine project..... anyway, the 9F...

So first of all I finished off some brackets by doing some milling on our little Hardinge Lathe.

Image

And then I let sparks fly on the Surface Grinder...

Image


And the end result is that on the left, the Rear Brake Shaft Support Bracket and on the right, the Brake Cylinder Support Brackets are finished.

Image

Thats all for now though.
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