4472 'Flying Scotsman'

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4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:33 am

The following is the comment that I posted on 3rd February 2009, under the 'Tornado Videos' Topic:

34053 wrote:Thankyou IanM. Excellent video clip of the 'Peppercorn Pioneer' run (for the Covenantors). £3million well spent! Even more so when you consider that the National Railway Museum has, so far, spent nearly this amount on 4472 'Flying Scotsman' since 2005 (including the initial £2.2million purchase price).£742,000 has already been spent 'to date' on the major overhaul work and completion is not now expected until 2010 (havng slipped already from 2008 and then 2009).Therefore the overall cost will be very much in excess of 'Tornado's £3million !


Well, the latest news is that 'Flying Scotsman' will NOT now be completed this year! The plan now is to complete the 'bottom end' at NRM York by autumn this year. This will then be taken to Bury (Ian Riley's Workshop) where the Boiler is undergoing a major rebuild. Following the reuniting of the Boiler with the Frames the Locomotive will return to York in spring 2011, for testing and running in. All being well, we should see 4472 back on the Main Line in the summer of 2011. (At an estimated final total cost of £4million).

PW
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Spitfire » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:25 am

And well worth every penny :D

Remember getting a footplate ride on her as a boy in Shrewsbury - even the name 'Flying Scotsman' evokes memories and feelings of speed and power in the psyche B-)
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Fri Apr 02, 2010 1:19 pm

Spitfire wrote:And well worth every penny :D

Remember getting a footplate ride on her as a boy in Shrewsbury - even the name 'Flying Scotsman' evokes memories and feelings of speed and power in the psyche B-)




Wel; she was built in 1923! :p
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Spitfire » Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:50 pm

Xplumberlives wrote:
Spitfire wrote:And well worth every penny :D

Remember getting a footplate ride on her as a boy in Shrewsbury - even the name 'Flying Scotsman' evokes memories and feelings of speed and power in the psyche B-)




Wel; she was built in 1923! :p


Good job I've given up pedantry .... clever clogs :ymdevil:

And that interesting snippet would have made her 38 when I was on board :p :D
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:27 pm

Jolly good for you, I was -3 in 1961!
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Sun May 16, 2010 1:32 pm

Happy Birthday, Alan Pegler. Alan Pegler OBE was 90 years old on 16th April 2010! Without Alan Pegler we would not have 4472 'Flying Scotsman'. This locomotive was not included in the 'National Collection' List at the end of Steam Traction (and therefore condemned to the Scrap Yard!) so Alan Pegler bought it himself on 7th December 1962, for £3,000 (a lot of money then!). Unfortunately, in later years, he took 4472 to North America on a visit, but sufferred both financial and personal disaster as a result and had to 'work his passage' back to the UK on a Cruise Ship! Fortunately, the locomotive was 'repatriated' by Sir William McAlpine in 1973, overhauled and even made another overseas visit, to Australia, in 1988. Pete Waterman and Dr Tony Marchington then took joint ownership between 1996 and 2004. It was then (at long last) saved for the Nation and purchased for the 'National Collection'. All being well, 4472 should be back on the Main Line next year (following an extensive and very expensive) overhaul. (See my earlier Posts above).

Thank you, Alan Pegler.

PW

PS: Use the link below to read a Synopsis of a talk given to The Friends of the National Railway Museum, by Alan Pegler, on 23rd September 1996:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ms.draper/ ... p2396.html
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Mayfly » Sun May 16, 2010 9:04 pm

Happy Birthday Alan :YMPARTY:

Thanks PW
In memory of a very dear friend - Mike Pearson

Very fond memories of Robbie Gilvary - DTs 1st Vulcan Captain who taught DT all he knew.
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:01 pm

Not good News, I'm afraid. Hopes of having 'Flying Scotsman' back on the Main Line again this sunmmer have been dashed. Despite the unveiling of 4472 (in wartime black livery) at the NRM York in May (as a precursor to her final completion and 'running-in' in July this year) cracks have been found in the Frames. (Actually, in the 'hornblocks'-the metal inserts which fit into the six 'cut-outs' in the Frames for the Driving Wheels' axle boxes). The 'bottom end' of the Locomotive will now have to be taken apart and the Frames lifted off the wheels, to allow 'ultrasonic testing' to be carried and determine the full extent of the problem! It is anticipated the total cost of this Locomotive's lengthy (and problematical) overhaul could be £1.6million. (4472 was taken out of sevice, for this overhaul, at the end of 2005).

However, on a positive note, the NRM have given assurances that this 'A3' Locomotive will be available for the planned 'A1' (60163 'Tornado'), 'A2' (60532 'Blue Peter'), 'A3' (4472 'Flying Scotsman') and 'A4' (4492 'Dominion of New Zealand'-actually 60019 'Bittern' masquerading as 4492) line-up' at Barrow Hill Roundhouse, in October this year. Keep your fingers crossed!!!! Click on the link below for details:

http://www.barrowhill.org/links/steamgalaposter.pdf

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Minty4371 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:10 pm

By the time it is back running, they could have built a brand new one for the money it has cost. I don't think it will be ready for October this year. Surely they could have spotted the fault earlier and not until everything was put back together, and then test it. The locomotive is a bottomless money pit.
This is only my personal opinion.
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:23 pm

Minty4371 wrote:By the time it is back running, they could have built a brand new one for the money it has cost. I don't think it will be ready for October this year. Surely they could have spotted the fault earlier and not until everything was put back together, and then test it. The locomotive is a bottomless money pit.
This is only my personal opinion.


Yes, including the original purchase price, it's going to be not far short of £4 million by the time it's finished! ('Tornado' was built for £3 million, from scratch!). But there you go, 'Flying Scotsman' is one of those 'Iconic' L.ocomotives.

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby RLN » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:44 pm

I can't believe they didn't NDT before they put it back together. :-o
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Minty4371 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:17 pm

RLN wrote:I can't believe they didn't NDT before they put it back together. :-o

Exactly. I wonder if the same question has been asked at the NRM.
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:13 pm

34053 wrote:........on a positive note, the NRM have given assurances that this 'A3' Locomotive will be available for the planned 'A1' (60163 'Tornado'), 'A2' (60532 'Blue Peter'), 'A3' (4472 'Flying Scotsman') and 'A4' (4492 'Dominion of New Zealand'-actually 60019 'Bittern' masquerading as 4492) 'line-up' at Barrow Hill Roundhouse, in October this year. Keep your fingers crossed!!!!

PW


Now here's a surprise!!! I checked on the Barrow Hill Roundhouse website this morning and found that the planned 'FAB 4 STEAM GALA' (mentioned above, when a member from each 'A' Class Locomotive would be present) planned for 14th to 16th October 2010, has been postponed. Now I wonder why?????????!!!!!!!!!!! Something to do with 'Flying Scotsman' do you think? The 'New Dates' are 13th to 15th April 2012.

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:56 am

Curiouser and curiouser! :-o ;)
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:26 pm

Just when you thought that it could not get any worse:

Latest News is that Scotsman's Boiler is to be lifted off the Frames! The main 'Frame Stretcher' (the horizontal steel sections that hold the two sides of the Frames apart) has got to be replaced, due to serious cracks (!) having been detected. These stretchers weigh about half a ton and it was considered 'easier and more economical' to replace it, rather than trying to carry out a repair job. The saga continues!

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:32 pm

Bum, more expense!
"All modern aircraft have 4 dimensions: span, length, height and politics.
TSR-2 simply got the first 3 right. ”
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby MOD » Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:02 pm

34053 wrote:Just when you thought that it could not get any worse:

Latest News is that Scotsman's Boiler is to be lifted off the Frames! The main 'Frame Stretcher' (the horizontal steel sections that hold the two sides of the Frames apart) has got to be replaced, due to serious cracks (!) having been detected. These stretchers weigh about half a ton and it was considered 'easier and more economical' to replace it, rather than trying to carry out a repair job. The saga continues!

PW


Thanks for the info Ray. So the NRM York didn't spot these cracks in 2007 during their 6 year restoration project (or they weren't then evident). Their restoration was completed in mid 2011 according to wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flyin ... n_2007.jpg


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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:55 pm

Although the death, on 18th March, of Alan Pegler (who saved 'Flying Scotsman' in 1963) has been the subject of a separate Topic (see 'Chit Chat') I thought that it would be appropriate to also post the link to his Obituary here, as well:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituar ... egler.html

How sad that he did not live to see the completion, this year, of the latest Restoration work on 'Flying Scotsman'

RIP

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:58 am

The 'Latest News' on 4472 is not good! This Locomotive will be unable to be part of the 'Fab Four' first ever Preservation line-up of an 'A1' (Tornado), 'A2' (Blue Peter), 'A3' (Flying Scotsman) and 'A4' (Bittern) at Barrow Hill's Gala (April 13th-15th). The 'A3' will now be substituted by 'V2' Green Arrow plus an additional 'A4' Mallard, on its first visit to Barrow Hill Roundhouse. However, only Tornado and Bittern will be 'In Steam'. See this link for more details:

http://www.barrowhill.org/links/fab4.pdf

Furthermore, the intention was for Flying Scotsman to be part of the 'Olympic Torch Relay' on June 20th, from York to Thirsk. This honour will now be undertaken by 46115 Scots Guardsman (famous for its part in the 1936 film 'Night Mail').

The reason? According to the NRM, further remedial work has been identified, 'which involves the manufacture of new parts'. No new date for completion has been confirmed. This was originally set as '2007', but has been delayed again and again, with costs rising from an 'estimated' £750,000 to £2.6 million!! (What would the late Alan Pegler think of all this?).

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:05 pm

Bugger! ~x(
"All modern aircraft have 4 dimensions: span, length, height and politics.
TSR-2 simply got the first 3 right. ”
— Sir Sydney Camm
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:18 pm

TV Programme tonight: BBC2 (2100 - 2200hrs) 'The Flying Scotsman: A Rail Romance'. 'Documentary, telling the story of the Nation's love affair with....the locomotive which symbolised all that was great about British engineering.......'

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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby RLN » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:02 pm

Thanks, PW.
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Mackrick » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:35 pm

Thanks PW
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby 34053 » Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:16 pm

It has been quite some time since I last gave you an update on the situation with 'Flying Scotsman'. Quite a lot has been going on, but all very depressing I regret to say!!!

An independent Report, produced by 'First Class Partnerships' has just been published. This is based upon investigations carried out by Chartered Mechanical Engineers Tony Roche and Allan Baker. Well (if you can stomach it) briefly, here are their main findings:

- The Middle Cylinder is 'out of alignment'.

- It has also been found that the three cylinders are of differing diameters! The 'A3' Locomotives were built with cylinder diameters of 19''. However, 'Scotsman' has Middle and Left Hand Cylinders of 20'' dia and a Right Hand Cylinder of 19.5'' dia. (This would mean that the Locomotive would have been operating well above its 'design characteristics'. This could well have been the possible cause of the cracks that have been found in the Frames). The Middle Cylinder needs to be correctly aligned and all three cylinders re-lined and bored out to the correct 19'' dia. (Should this work be deemed 'not viable', 'Scotsman' woukld have to be relegated to become just a 'static display').

- The Report recommends that any further work be carried out by an external, 'specialist contractor' to complete the Restoration. A 'Draft Plan' indicates that the programme of work would take '60 weeks' to complete. (So, realistically, no 'Scotsman' on the Main Line until 2015!).

There's loads more. If you are interested in reading the 'full' Report, it can be viewed at:

http://www.nrm.org.uk/aboutus/nrmdocuments

I say 'full' Report, but (can you believe it) there are, apparently no fewer than 76 'redactions' (blanked out texts) ranging from single words to whole paragraphs and pages. This is disgraceful. The whole project has been 'publicly funded', so what has happened to the NRM's accountability and the public's right to know?

I am completely and totally lost for words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PW
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Re: 4472 'Flying Scotsman'

Postby Xplumberlives » Sat Mar 30, 2013 4:22 pm

Not great reading unfortunately Ray!

Thanks for shortening it for us!
"All modern aircraft have 4 dimensions: span, length, height and politics.
TSR-2 simply got the first 3 right. ”
— Sir Sydney Camm
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